Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by tomalak301, Apr 20, 2019.
R and M
And the next episode is RM w/a Vu. Can't be a coincidence.
Wolfram and Hart are more like whole series big bads rather than seasonal, although there's a twist in that status later on.
Ok. I guess I'm still in Buffy Mode to the point where each season has a different arc. Sounds like Angel bends that some. That's good to know.
I forgot one other thing. Do they bend the Vampires burn up during the day rule? How is Angel getting around so easily in plain daylight. Spike had to cover himself up every time he ran into the house.
Yeah, W&H goes all the way into the comics.
Angel is another one that starts a bit rough, but is absolutely great by the end. There are a few rough patches, but like Buffy they aren't enough to ruin the overall show.
A little? In an episode near the start he quickly jumps out in the daylight and is fine in the shade under a dock.
Angel and Spike have the ability to survive in direct sunlight much longer than other vampires.
That was the previous episode, but Angel was still burning up when he grabbed Marcus and sent him into the water. And then he put on the ring to make him immune to the daylight, but at least they tried to follow the rule there.
FYI, Anthony Stewart Head tweeted this yesterday about “The Body”:
(Joss Whedon, Nicolas Brendan, and Emma Caufield, all responded)
Anthony Stewart Head (@AnthonySHead)
6/9/19, 12:01 AM
So I watched #TheBody again yesterday and I cried...several times. Quite the most beautiful and extraordinary piece of television. Written and directed by @joss it should have so many awards hanging around its neck - it was and still is groundbreaking x
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If I still had twitter, I would say I am watching Buffy for the first time and I agree whole heartedly. It really was a masterstroke of TV production.
I suppose the little joke about Andrew was okay if they’d left it there. But the joke about the Gap and the other mall retail staples, looked to me like, “I’m already over her, back to being big dumb Xander.” Too much, too soon.
Can we remember to use spoiler tags when referring to future events and character arcs.
It's only Spoilers for Angel now. This thread has been pretty good about that.
Yes,I was referring to Angel. There have been at least two spoilers about future events on the show posted without spoiler tags.
I didn’t think they were spoilers. More like teases. But I’m enjoying the conversation.
If that was in reference to me, I didn't really consider what I said a spoiler since I kept it fairly general, and I didn't reveal any exact details of what happens with W&H. Even the slightest bit of reading about the show will make it pretty clear that W&H sticks around.
Actually, it’s LM.
It’s really only the major people AI interact with, though.
No. The spoiler was already out there by the time you posted on the subject.
I will look out for it as I go. I was thinking about Russell in the first episode and Ronald in the recent episode. I guess I'll find out soon enough.
As for the spoilers, I did ask, so it doesn't bother me that much. Besides, it's something I might forget in a week.
Sorry. Work's been fucking crazy, and I was exhausted. How does being the only bakery worker in a major supermarket (thanks to two injuries and the bakery manager's pre-planned vacation paid for over a year ago) for the entire weekend work out? Not great, Bob!
I just woke up from my after work nap (I start work at 5am). Super post, motherfucka!
Fun fact about your top five:
Lies My Parents Told Me (co-written by Drew Goddard)
Conversations with Dead People (Trio scenes by Drew Goddard)
Selfless (by Drew Goddard)
Dirty Girls (by Drew Goddard)
They toyed with the idea of Caleb killing off Xander, but decided that the show couldn't have a happy ending if one of the Core Four or Dawn died, so they poked his eye out instead.
There's a behind-the-scenes reason why Anya was killed off. Emma Caulfield was actually signed on as a full-time cast member halfway through Season 4. Right around the time she started to be a bigger presence in the show. She wasn't credited yet due to them already blowing the opening credit budget with the multiple cast changes that already happened plus the planned joke credits for the Jonathan episode. The same thing actually happened in Season 1. Eric Balfour's Jesse was supposed to be a main cast member for the first two episodes, but they didn't have the budget to do two different credit sequences.
Anyhoo, Emma Caulfield still had one year left on her contract after Buffy: Season 7. Not wanting to be forced to appear in Marti Noxon's proposed Willow, Dawn & Kennedy spin-off Slayer School, she asked Whedon to kill her off in the series finale. He obliged.
There were a few other spin-offs proposed as the series was ending. Thirteen (!) scripts were completed for Jeph Loeb's Buffy: The Animated Series (according to Loeb; Whedon says 6-7). Whedon co-wrote the pilot with Loeb, and additional scripts were written by Jane Espenson, Douglas Petrie, Steven S. DeKnight, Drew Z. Greenberg and Rebecca Rand Kirshner. It was originally planned for FOX Kids back in 2001/2002, but 20th Century Fox revived the idea (and produced that famous mini pilot) after Buffy ended. Here's a quote from Whedon:
There was Tim Minear's Faith the Vampire Slayer, which didn't happen due to Eliza Dushku signing on to Tru Calling instead. Here's a quote from Dushku:
And another from Minear:
There were, of course, further talks about Ripper. Again, the BBC wanted six episodes a year and UPN wanted 22. For the second time they couldn't meet in the middle with 13. When the Buffy: Season 8 comics happened four years later, Whedon wanted it to be an ambitious "multi-platform" project. In addition to the 40 issues of comics, Whedon wanted to make several straight-to-video movies including Whedon's Ripper and Brian K. Vaughan's Faith (co-starring Giles). 20th Century Fox wanted all of the Buffy and Angel actors planned for that various movies to work for scale (the Actor's Guild equivalent of minimum wage), which offended the actors and killed the movies. Vaughan took his Faith screenplay and adapted it as one of the opening arcs of Buffy: Season 8. Finally, in 2008 Doctor Who producer Julie Gardner got the BBC to greenlight Whedon's Ripper screenplay as a TV movie special. The BBC would fund 100% of the budget with 50% of any profits being sent to 20th Century Fox Television. 20th Century Fox then told Gardner, Whedon, Tony Head and the BBC that they couldn't do that as they owned the rights to the character. When asked if they had any plans for him Fox Television said, "No." Ripper died its final death right there. Ideas and characters from it were later used for Christos Gage's beloved 25 issue Angel comic run.
Here's a quote from Whedon:
I really like Chosen, but I prefer Season 5's almost series finale. The Gift is pure excellence. Chosen is great, but you can see the strings. Whedon is clearly going through a checklist (Kill off Anya, have Buffy unspokenly forgive Giles, have Andrew using his lying for the force of good instead of evil to comfort Xander, show Faith might be able to trust people again, etc.), but he's so damn good at it you don't really care.
My season rankings:
Seasons 3 & 5 - Firing on all cylinders. Peak Buffy.
Seasons 2 & 4 - Excellent myth arc; weak standalones/Excellent standalones; weak myth arc.
Season 1 - Cheesy as fuck, but nostalgic cheese.
Season 6 - Needlessly grim dark & deeply flawed, but at least Noxon tried something different. That's something, I guess.
Season 7 - Come for the blandness. Stay for the Drew Goddard.
My Big Bad rankings:
Angelus - You never forget your first love.
The Mayor - Harry Groener was a goddamn delight. Even in his brief post-Season 3 cameos.
Glory - Wait. Is there a connection between her and Ben?
The Master - Better than the First.
The First Evil - What a waste of a solid concept.
Adam - What a waste of a shit concept.
Warren Mears - What a shit.
Is there any other way Xander's arc would have ended?
Angel gets a personality soon. Definitely by the end of the season. The show took a lot of characters from Buffy that I thought were likeable enough but rather one-note and really fleshed them out into compelling, three-dimensional people.
There was a (smaller) change to the pilot too. Originally, when Angel found Tracy Middendorf's body he got her blood on his hand and he looked down at it. After a few moments he ate the blood on his finger, but was then horrified at what he just did. This was meant to convey just how cut off Angel currently was from humanity. And how that isn't a great place for him to be because he starts to see people as food, even if he doesn't mean to. In the finished episode, it cuts away after Angel looks down at his hand.
No one's more tempting than sex god Abe Vigoda.
The trilogy of episodes built around Pangs is one of the highlights of early Season 1. There are a few highlights after it, but the show really starts to become the Angel we know and love with the final five episodes of the season.
There's actually a great gag later in the series where Angel's regailing a bunch of people with stories of his exploits. He starts to tell them about the guy with the detachable body parts, and a member of the Angel Investigations team sarcastically responds, "Oh, right. Because that was a good one."
The writers admittedly struggled with Angel being around sunlight in Season 1. The idea was that he was getting around in the sewers, but there's still scenes where he's by a window or seemingly in direct sunlight regardless. Basically, they really struggled making Angel fit into his friends' daylight world. In Seasons 2+, most of the series takes place at night, and the Angel Investigations team worked around his schedule. Plus night time just feels more appropriate for the eventual tone of the series.
Great post. Thank you for the long reply and the knowledge. I knew about Ripper and Faith the Vampire Slayer but yeah schedules get in the way.
I've already picked up the tone of this series being more Noir than Buffy was. It just seems odd that Angel is doing a lot of daylight things, which the plot requires, but he's still a vampire.
Sounds like a few other series I know, namely Farscape.
Interesting about the animated series, that one always bummed me out that it didn't happen.
So Faith the Vampire Slayer didn't happen because Eliza Dushku did Tru Calling instead but that led to her getting a development deal with Fox which led to her working with Joss to do Dollhouse. Depending on how you feel about that it's a bit of a consolation prize.
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