Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel - First Time Viewer

[tomalak301]

Also, notice how everyone Wolfram & Hart has the same initials.

R and M

And the next episode is RM w/a Vu. Can't be a coincidence.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Wolfram and Hart are more like whole series big bads rather than seasonal, although there's a twist in that status later on.

 

[tomalak301]

Wolfram and Hart are more like whole series big bads rather than seasonal, although there's a twist in that status later on.

Ok. I guess I'm still in Buffy Mode to the point where each season has a different arc. Sounds like Angel bends that some. That's good to know.

I forgot one other thing. Do they bend the Vampires burn up during the day rule? How is Angel getting around so easily in plain daylight. Spike had to cover himself up every time he ran into the house.

 

[JD]

Yeah, W&H goes all the way into the comics.
Angel is another one that starts a bit rough, but is absolutely great by the end. There are a few rough patches, but like Buffy they aren't enough to ruin the overall show.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Ok. I guess I'm still in Buffy Mode to the point where each season has a different arc. Sounds like Angel bends that some. That's good to know.

I forgot one other thing. Do they bend the Vampires burn up during the day rule? How is Angel getting around so easily in plain daylight. Spike had to cover himself up every time he ran into the house.

A little? In an episode near the start he quickly jumps out in the daylight and is fine in the shade under a dock.

Angel and Spike have the ability to survive in direct sunlight much longer than other vampires.

 

[tomalak301]

A little? In an episode near the start he quickly jumps out in the daylight and is fine in the shade under a dock.

Angel and Spike have the ability to survive in direct sunlight much longer than other vampires.

That was the previous episode, but Angel was still burning up when he grabbed Marcus and sent him into the water. And then he put on the ring to make him immune to the daylight, but at least they tried to follow the rule there.

 

[gblews]

FYI, Anthony Stewart Head tweeted this yesterday about “The Body”:
(Joss Whedon, Nicolas Brendan, and Emma Caufield, all responded)

Anthony Stewart Head (@AnthonySHead)
6/9/19, 12:01 AM
So I watched #TheBody again yesterday and I cried...several times. Quite the most beautiful and extraordinary piece of television. Written and directed by ⁦‪@joss‬⁩ it should have so many awards hanging around its neck - it was and still is groundbreaking x

Download the Twitter app

 

[tomalak301]

FYI, Anthony Stewart Head tweeted this yesterday about “The Body”:
(Joss Whedon, Nicolas Brendan, and Emma Caufield, all responded)

Anthony Stewart Head (@AnthonySHead)
6/9/19, 12:01 AM
So I watched #TheBody again yesterday and I cried...several times. Quite the most beautiful and extraordinary piece of television. Written and directed by ⁦‪@joss‬⁩ it should have so many awards hanging around its neck - it was and still is groundbreaking x

Download the Twitter app

If I still had twitter, I would say I am watching Buffy for the first time and I agree whole heartedly. It really was a masterstroke of TV production.

 

[gblews]

Gallows humor is a coping mechanism for many people, and Xander is probably one of them.

I suppose the little joke about Andrew was okay if they’d left it there. But the joke about the Gap and the other mall retail staples, looked to me like, “I’m already over her, back to being big dumb Xander.” Too much, too soon.

 

[gblews]

Can we remember to use spoiler tags when referring to future events and character arcs.

 

[tomalak301]

Can we remember to use spoiler tags when referring to future events and character arcs.

It's only Spoilers for Angel now. This thread has been pretty good about that.

 

[gblews]

It's only Spoilers for Angel now. This thread has been pretty good about that.

Yes,I was referring to Angel. There have been at least two spoilers about future events on the show posted without spoiler tags.

 

[tomalak301]

Yes,I was referring to Angel. There have been at least two spoilers about future events on the show posted without spoiler tags.

I didn’t think they were spoilers. More like teases. But I’m enjoying the conversation.

 

[JD]

Yes,I was referring to Angel. There have been at least two spoilers about future events on the show posted without spoiler tags.

If that was in reference to me, I didn't really consider what I said a spoiler since I kept it fairly general, and I didn't reveal any exact details of what happens with W&H. Even the slightest bit of reading about the show will make it pretty clear that W&H sticks around.

 

[Mr Soak]

R and M

And the next episode is RM w/a Vu. Can't be a coincidence.

Actually, it’s LM.

It’s really only the major people AI interact with, though.

 

[gblews]

If that was in reference to me,

No. The spoiler was already out there by the time you posted on the subject.

 

[tomalak301]

Actually, it’s LM.

It’s really only the major people AI interact with, though.

I will look out for it as I go. I was thinking about Russell in the first episode and Ronald in the recent episode. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

As for the spoilers, I did ask, so it doesn't bother me that much. Besides, it's something I might forget in a week.

 

[OCD Geek]

Sorry. Work's been fucking crazy, and I was exhausted. How does being the only bakery worker in a major supermarket (thanks to two injuries and the bakery manager's pre-planned vacation paid for over a year ago) for the entire weekend work out? Not great, Bob!

I just woke up from my after work nap (I start work at 5am). Super post, motherfucka!

Chosen

I feel like that episode could have been longer. I remember when Series Finales felt like movies, where you could have that extra hour to tie up everything you needed to and feel a sense of closure for the characters. I thought this episode was great, with a powerful message of women empowerment and Buffy's speech actually gave me chills. I was actually satisfied that it took a lot of the themes of these men using these woman as tools and saying, no we are the slayers, we have the power to change the rules. That was the message of this show and I think the finale really worked at conveying that across.

I think what fell a little short for me though, was this episode kinda felt rushed. I mean we have this amulet that Spike puts on and it feels like a Du Ex Machina ending. Maybe Angel tells us what what Amulet does, but maybe they should have put in a "Previously on Angel and Buffy" tag, since they have done it before. Also, that battle was great, I kinda wish it was longer though, and this goes back to Spike. They wrote Spike really really well this season I thought, yet he's only there to wear the thing and light up like a torch. Maybe that was the destiny of his character, the Vampire with the heart of a champion, who got his soul, finally helping to save the world.

Also, I'm wondering about Willow. Has Willow become the new Guardian? That scene with her and the Ax looked really important, with her hair turning white and having this really glowing look. I think that was the reason for the Guardian scene in End of Days. It was a set up for Willow to become the new Guardian, yet I think the extra hour could have helped clear that up.

I hope you don't get the wrong Idea because I really enjoyed this finale. It was tense, action filled, and Sunnydale is no more because they destroyed the Hellmouth. It was awesome seeing the potentials rise up to become slayers and yeah there was a bit of a Captain Marvel moment there with Young Buffy at the plate.

There were two scenes that I absolutely loved that felt really Joss Whedon.

1)Reference to the Harvest with Giles saying The Earth is Definitely Doomed. I actually cheered at that.

2) Buffy's analogy to Cookie Dough. It was awkwardly adorable. Hell, Gellar really killed it in this episode.

So that brings me to the end of Buffy. When I started this thread I had heard great things about this series and it was considered one of the best shows of all time. Is it my favorite show of all time? I would probably say no, but it is in a top 10. I loved this experience and I'm glad I watched and bought this series. These characters were relatable, well written, and the themes it touched on are timeless. It brought me back to my teenage years and I loved watching these characters grow into the people they ended up being. However, I do think the last two seasons felt uneven, and I think the whole potential slayer overcrowding Buffy's house kinda hurt Season 7. I get what they were trying to do, but there needed to be more time to develop them and there wasn't.

In terms of my Season 7 top 5 and Season Rankings:

Season 7 Top 5:

Lies My Parents Told Me
Conversations with Dead People
Chosen
Selfless
Dirty Girls

Season Rankings

Season 5
Season 2
Season 3
Season 6
Season 4
Season 7
Season 1 (And I liked season 1, but in the long run it's too short to be anywhere but last, unfortunately. Also, The Series launched into really good with Prophecy Girl)

So how did I do? This thread is not dead because I still have Angel, but I am so appreciative at how this thread blew up like it did. I loved talking about this series, and I was surprised when I started this that I did a search for Buffy using the forum search tool and nothing came up. For a series like this to not have been talked about on this forum, it was a great time to start one. I loved the comments, sometimes I was wrong or maybe said things I shouldn't have, but I loved the interaction with you guys and that will keep going with Angel.

Fun fact about your top five:
Lies My Parents Told Me (co-written by Drew Goddard)
Conversations with Dead People (Trio scenes by Drew Goddard)
Selfless (by Drew Goddard)
Dirty Girls (by Drew Goddard)

They toyed with the idea of Caleb killing off Xander, but decided that the show couldn't have a happy ending if one of the Core Four or Dawn died, so they poked his eye out instead.

There's a behind-the-scenes reason why Anya was killed off. Emma Caulfield was actually signed on as a full-time cast member halfway through Season 4. Right around the time she started to be a bigger presence in the show. She wasn't credited yet due to them already blowing the opening credit budget with the multiple cast changes that already happened plus the planned joke credits for the Jonathan episode. The same thing actually happened in Season 1. Eric Balfour's Jesse was supposed to be a main cast member for the first two episodes, but they didn't have the budget to do two different credit sequences.

Anyhoo, Emma Caulfield still had one year left on her contract after Buffy: Season 7. Not wanting to be forced to appear in Marti Noxon's proposed Willow, Dawn & Kennedy spin-off Slayer School, she asked Whedon to kill her off in the series finale. He obliged.

There were a few other spin-offs proposed as the series was ending. Thirteen (!) scripts were completed for Jeph Loeb's Buffy: The Animated Series (according to Loeb; Whedon says 6-7). Whedon co-wrote the pilot with Loeb, and additional scripts were written by Jane Espenson, Douglas Petrie, Steven S. DeKnight, Drew Z. Greenberg and Rebecca Rand Kirshner. It was originally planned for FOX Kids back in 2001/2002, but 20th Century Fox revived the idea (and produced that famous mini pilot) after Buffy ended. Here's a quote from Whedon:

We just couldn't find a home for (it). We had a great animation director, great visuals, six or seven hilarious scripts from our own staff—and nobody wanted it. I was completely baffled. I felt like I was sitting there with bags of money and nobody would take them from me. It was a question of people either not wanting it or not being able to put up the money because it was not a cheap show. One thing I was very hard-line about was, I didn't want people to see it if it looked like crap. I wanted it to be on a level with Animaniacs or Batman: The Animated Series. And that's a little pricier. But I just don't think it's worth doing unless it's beautiful to look at as well as fun.

There was Tim Minear's Faith the Vampire Slayer, which didn't happen due to Eliza Dushku signing on to Tru Calling instead. Here's a quote from Dushku:

The idea for the Faith spin-off just kind of came up in discussion because everyone really, I think, was feeling like this show's going to end and there are all these fans who love it so much and who love these characters and so, if possible, how could we extend that? I just personally felt like... It would have been a really hard thing to do, and not that I wouldn't have been up for a challenge, but with it coming on immediately following the show, I think that those would have been really big boots to fill. I think it would have been compared to Buffy. And just in terms of me, I've played that character on and off for five years now and I've changed a lot and while the character of Faith changed when I came back because I've changed, I felt like maybe it was time to... I mean, I love Faith. She's my girl and she's been really good to me, but I kind of just wanted to try something else. Purely that, because it had nothing to do with me not trusting Joss and his team of writers, who I just think are amazing. Tim Minear and Drew Goddard, and Marti Noxon and all these people, they're so talented and it had nothing to do with me doubting that they could make this show amazing, but I just... I don't know, sometimes you have to go with your gut, and my gut was telling me that I maybe needed to try something else that was just different.

And another from Minear:

"I had come up with a pitch. Eliza was gracious, kind and wonderful, but she felt like she wanted to do something new. There is no hard feelings there. But the show was basically going to be Faith meets Kung Fu. It would have been Faith, probably on a motorcycle, crossing the earth, trying to find her place in the world. I'm sure it would get an arc at some point, but the idea of her rooted somewhere seemed wrong to me. The idea of her constantly on the move seemed right to me. And she broke out of prison (on Angel) so there would have been some people after her."

There were, of course, further talks about Ripper. Again, the BBC wanted six episodes a year and UPN wanted 22. For the second time they couldn't meet in the middle with 13. When the Buffy: Season 8 comics happened four years later, Whedon wanted it to be an ambitious "multi-platform" project. In addition to the 40 issues of comics, Whedon wanted to make several straight-to-video movies including Whedon's Ripper and Brian K. Vaughan's Faith (co-starring Giles). 20th Century Fox wanted all of the Buffy and Angel actors planned for that various movies to work for scale (the Actor's Guild equivalent of minimum wage), which offended the actors and killed the movies. Vaughan took his Faith screenplay and adapted it as one of the opening arcs of Buffy: Season 8. Finally, in 2008 Doctor Who producer Julie Gardner got the BBC to greenlight Whedon's Ripper screenplay as a TV movie special. The BBC would fund 100% of the budget with 50% of any profits being sent to 20th Century Fox Television. 20th Century Fox then told Gardner, Whedon, Tony Head and the BBC that they couldn't do that as they owned the rights to the character. When asked if they had any plans for him Fox Television said, "No." Ripper died its final death right there. Ideas and characters from it were later used for Christos Gage's beloved 25 issue Angel comic run.

Here's a quote from Whedon:

Whedon said that the show would be in the tradition of "classic English ghost stories" and would explore the theme of loneliness. Head described the idea as being like "Cracker with ghosts"; Whedon elaborated on some of the themes he had planned for the series: "The people who live there, it's all very isolated. [Giles] himself has been gone for many years. He was surrounded by a de facto family that he no longer has. And [he is] sort of picking up his life all alone, and then getting involved in the underbelly of other people's lives, and finding out all about them. Loneliness is what I think of. It may not be the theme so much as the emotional intent of the series, but that's what really attracts it to me the most"

I really like Chosen, but I prefer Season 5's almost series finale. The Gift is pure excellence. Chosen is great, but you can see the strings. Whedon is clearly going through a checklist (Kill off Anya, have Buffy unspokenly forgive Giles, have Andrew using his lying for the force of good instead of evil to comfort Xander, show Faith might be able to trust people again, etc.), but he's so damn good at it you don't really care.

My season rankings:
Seasons 3 & 5 - Firing on all cylinders. Peak Buffy.
Seasons 2 & 4 - Excellent myth arc; weak standalones/Excellent standalones; weak myth arc.
Season 1 - Cheesy as fuck, but nostalgic cheese.
Season 6 - Needlessly grim dark & deeply flawed, but at least Noxon tried something different. That's something, I guess.
Season 7 - Come for the blandness. Stay for the Drew Goddard.

My Big Bad rankings:
Angelus - You never forget your first love.
The Mayor - Harry Groener was a goddamn delight. Even in his brief post-Season 3 cameos.
Glory - Wait. Is there a connection between her and Ben?
The Master - Better than the First.
The First Evil - What a waste of a solid concept.
Adam - What a waste of a shit concept.
Warren Mears - What a shit.

One of the things I hated about the finale was how casually Anya's death was brushed off. The actual event is just a quick cut (pun intended). Then when someone tells Zander they saw her die fighting he just shrugs and says that's my girl. Basically Anya is flushed down the drain and Zander closes out the series continuing to be a giant dick.

Is there any other way Xander's arc would have ended?

In the Dark

I think this is the first great episode of Angel. It's funny I saw this episode maybe a month ago, and watching it again actually made me remember the Buffy episode that this was attached with. It's also kinda weird one night to see Spike help save the world and get dusted, to the next night going back to when he was an evil vampire wanting the immunity ring. Yeah I know it's a separation of 3 seasons, but still. One other thing I was thinking about was Angel in Chosen really had a personality, almost like he was fully human. Here he's still that anti-social vamp who sits alone in the dark. I'm really excited to see that development where he does get some sort of personality. Granted he had some with Buffy, but I think Buffy did most of the heavy lifting. Cordelia and Doyle can only carry Angel so far.

And now the rest of the episodes will be new.

Angel gets a personality soon. Definitely by the end of the season. The show took a lot of characters from Buffy that I thought were likeable enough but rather one-note and really fleshed them out into compelling, three-dimensional people.

If I recall the second episode of Angel as written was rejected by the studio for being too dark and Lonely Heart was written at the last minute to replace it. I read the script years ago and it had Kate working undercover (as a prostitute).

There was a (smaller) change to the pilot too. Originally, when Angel found Tracy Middendorf's body he got her blood on his hand and he looked down at it. After a few moments he ate the blood on his finger, but was then horrified at what he just did. This was meant to convey just how cut off Angel currently was from humanity. And how that isn't a great place for him to be because he starts to see people as food, even if he doesn't mean to. In the finished episode, it cuts away after Angel looks down at his hand.

If the first episode of Cagney and Lacey still holds water, that's the only reason that they let women become detectives, if Barney Miller still holds water they used to send the men out in drag to catch the dirty John sex offenders.

No one's more tempting than sex god Abe Vigoda.

I Fall to Pieces

This was another episode where it was decent, but I wasn't really wowed by it. It's basically a stalker story, with a demon doctor herrassing a young woman, timely in 1999 and timely now, unfortunately. Still, this demon is able to detach body parts, and honestly, that was kinda lame. It was like Addams Family meets bad CGI with the teeth flying towards Angel. Also, there are some bits of dialogue that are a bit cringeworthy, like Doyle calling Cordelia Princess. At least we got to see Kate again, even though it was so brief. Also, I'm guessing Wolfram & Hurt are the big bads this season, as this is the second episode to bring them up. Of course this being early first season I'm giving this show a wide birth (I owe it that much considering it's a spin off to Buffy), so hopefully things might start picking up with some "great" episodes soon. I'm especially looking forward to the next few, considering this was another build around crossover with Buffy and that Pangs episode.

The trilogy of episodes built around Pangs is one of the highlights of early Season 1. There are a few highlights after it, but the show really starts to become the Angel we know and love with the final five episodes of the season.

There's actually a great gag later in the series where Angel's regailing a bunch of people with stories of his exploits. He starts to tell them about the guy with the detachable body parts, and a member of the Angel Investigations team sarcastically responds, "Oh, right. Because that was a good one."

Ok. I guess I'm still in Buffy Mode to the point where each season has a different arc. Sounds like Angel bends that some. That's good to know.

I forgot one other thing. Do they bend the Vampires burn up during the day rule? How is Angel getting around so easily in plain daylight. Spike had to cover himself up every time he ran into the house.

The writers admittedly struggled with Angel being around sunlight in Season 1. The idea was that he was getting around in the sewers, but there's still scenes where he's by a window or seemingly in direct sunlight regardless. Basically, they really struggled making Angel fit into his friends' daylight world. In Seasons 2+, most of the series takes place at night, and the Angel Investigations team worked around his schedule. Plus night time just feels more appropriate for the eventual tone of the series.

 

[tomalak301]

The writers admittedly struggled with Angel being around sunlight in Season 1. The idea was that he was getting around in the sewers, but there's still scenes where he's by a window or seemingly in direct sunlight regardless. Basically, they really struggled making Angel fit into his friends' daylight world. In Seasons 2+, most of the series takes place at night, and the Angel Investigations team worked around his schedule. Plus night time just feels more appropriate for the eventual tone of the series.

Great post. Thank you for the long reply and the knowledge. I knew about Ripper and Faith the Vampire Slayer but yeah schedules get in the way.

I've already picked up the tone of this series being more Noir than Buffy was. It just seems odd that Angel is doing a lot of daylight things, which the plot requires, but he's still a vampire.

The trilogy of episodes built around Pangs is one of the highlights of early Season 1. There are a few highlights after it, but the show really starts to become the Angel we know and love with the final five episodes of the season.

Sounds like a few other series I know, namely Farscape.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Interesting about the animated series, that one always bummed me out that it didn't happen.

So Faith the Vampire Slayer didn't happen because Eliza Dushku did Tru Calling instead but that led to her getting a development deal with Fox which led to her working with Joss to do Dollhouse. Depending on how you feel about that it's a bit of a consolation prize.