Bryan Fuller Stepping Back From Showrunner Role on ‘Star Trek: Discovery’

[Degra1]

...did you just hold up Dallas and Melsrose Place as shows that were better written than the major modern serialised dramas? For eg. compared to House of ?

I'll take Dallas and old school melrose place in their heyday seasons over something like House of Cards any day. They had interesting characters and entertaining plotlines. And at the end of day that's a large reason I watch tv

Tv nowadays is nowhere nearly as well plotted and are just too excessive. Excessive in terms of cast to service. Excessive in terms of darkness. Excessive in number of plots to keep track of. And they also tried too hard almost with a big flashing neon sign screaming " hey we are insufferable and angsty so that must mean we are great drama". Nope

 

[jamestyler]

The only complaint anyone could make about television in the past ten years is that we've been spoiled for choice. Most of the TV shows criticised here deliver everything that they're apparently void of - and then some.

 

[Trekkin]

'TV these-a-days revels in excess. They should go back to making primetime series like Dynasty.'



Admittedly, they don't make title sequences with such...'subtle' symbolism anymore.

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Not enough metaphorical penises on tv today, that's what I always say.

 

[eyeresist]

The only complaint anyone could make about television in the past ten years is that we've been spoiled for choice. Most of the TV shows criticised here deliver everything that they're apparently void of - and then some.

I wouldn't say we live in a "golden age", but there's just so much being produced these days (how could anyone watch it all?) that there's bound to be some top notch shows every year.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hi.

'TV these-a-days revels in excess. They should go back to making primetime series like Dynasty.'

I watched the pilot to this yesterday.

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[Trekkin]

Yeah...I have that as well.

I think I may have a problem.

 

[ihno]

They DO make a reboot-remake of Dynasty.

@Guy Gardener : Yuk, the Colbys. That is really hardcore.

But the title sequences of Dynasty and The Colbys were just great, I made one myself once.

But Westworld has a 1,5 min intro again which I appreciate very much.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I'll take Dallas and old school melrose place in their heyday seasons over something like House of Cards any day. They had interesting characters and entertaining plotlines. And at the end of day that's a large reason I watch tv

Tv nowadays is nowhere nearly as well plotted and are just too excessive. Excessive in terms of cast to service. Excessive in terms of darkness. Excessive in number of plots to keep track of. And they also tried too hard almost with a big flashing neon sign screaming " hey we are insufferable and angsty so that must mean we are great drama". Nope

You're right on there. Just compare classic Dallas against the continuation from a few years ago. The new version had literally everybody trying to screw everybody else. It was hard keeping track of who was doing what to whom.

Still a really good show, but it proves what you're saying about today's TV trying too hard.

 

[Mudd]

I'll take Dallas and old school melrose place in their heyday seasons over something like House of Cards any day.

Well, at least we've established the boundaries of your taste for purposes of further discussion.

Honestly, the best thing about Dynasty and Dallas was that you could watch them stupid drunk and stoned and they were even better and funnier. Certainly there was no challenge to following what passed for stories. Same was true of Miami Vice.

I've verified all of this by repeatable experiment.

 

[Degra1]

'TV these-a-days revels in excess. They should go back to making primetime series like Dynasty.'



Admittedly, they don't make title sequences with such...'subtle' symbolism anymore.

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Not enough metaphorical penises on tv today, that's what I always say.

When I say tv is excessive today. I'm not referring to it's over the top nature in terms of stories. I'm talking about the need by contemporary writers to go overboard in terms of ridiculously large casts that they can't possibly service properly, going overboard with a large number of plotlines, excess in terms of head spinning pacing that doesn't afford anytime to appreciate a scene or revelation before jumping on to the next, excessive in terms of unwieldy complicated hard to follow mythologies and character histories. You need a diagram for some shows to follow what's going on and who knew who when and who knew what when. I don't know about anybody else but I miss when tv shows didn't require so much work on the part of the audience in filling blanks or imagining what took place offscreen that writers fail to dramatize on screen or putting events or scenes into chronological order

Old school dramas just were more manageable by utilizing a modestly sized cast with a modest number of plotlines with one it two episode ending cliffhangers that picked up rught where they left off. Writers these days are too hung up on playing games with the audience that can be traced back to LOST and it seems like ever since that's the only way of storytelling they think is valid

I say enough with flashbacks/flash forwards, dropping things in the audience lap without sufficient build up. Enough with every character having to be related or having some secret character history with another character or characters. Enough with global conspiracies. And if the 80s/90s played it too safe with character deaths this decade has gone to the extreme with the slaughterhouse of characters constantly. And stop coming up with series ideas that work better as a mini series not a multi season show. Most series these days don't have a nice open premise instead it's much too limited to sustain and quickly come off the rails

 

[Trekkin]

When I say tv is excessive today. I'm not referring to it's over the top nature in terms of stories

Neither was I.

I don't know about anybody else but I miss when tv shows didn't require so much work on the part of the audience in filling blanks or imagining what took place offscreen that writers fail to dramatize on screen or putting events or scenes into chronological order

Doctor Who and Star Trek did that all the fucking time.

Not that it's necessarily a criticism. Jaws is famous for running with 'less is more.' Didn't see and (and are never told how) the shark managed to kill Ben Gardener? Who frigging cares, I'm too busy changing my underpants.

 

[Degra1]

Neither was I.



Doctor Who and Star Trek did that all the fucking time.

Not that it's necassarily a criticism. Jaws is famous for running with 'less is more.' Didn't see and (and are never told how) the shark managed to kill Ben Gardener? Who frigging cares, I'm too busy changing my underpants.

Star Trek really didn't. Have that problem. Doctor Who may have I didn't watch it. I found it horribly corny and off putting

 

[Trekkin]

So tell me, when did we ever find out the canon backstory for the Doomsday Machine?

Also: take a drink every time a character in DS9 describes a great and terrible battle, that we never actually see. Nobody is too fond of having their eyesight, are they?

 

[fireproof78]

TOS did it all the time, much less the rest of Star Trek. "Balance of Terror?" Did we ever see the Earth-Romulan War? What about the Gorn? Klingon first contact wasn't explored until ENT.

TOS works because it left many hints as to the history without going in to the specifics. It wasn't worried about humanity's past (Eugenics Wars in the 1990s?) but focused on getting to the future.

The idea that Star Trek, or any other TV show, doesn't suffer from many of the ills that plague modern TV can simply be attributed to the fact that there wasn't the Internet to comb over every detail. Unlike now, where every film trailer is dissected within two minutes of its being released.

 

[Degra1]

So tell me, when did we ever find out the canon backstory for the Doomsday Machine?

Also: take a drink every time a character in DS9 describes a great and terrible battle, that we never actually see. Nobody is too fond of having their eyesight, are they?

When I was talking about filling in blanks or not dramatizing something onscreen. I wasn't really referring to big events like these. I was talking along the lines that tv episodes are so overstuffed any more with characters and ground to cover with myriad plots--and with ever increasing commercial time--that they don't have the time to allow things to breathe in a scene or to dramatize a character reaction etc etc. instead it's either filmed but deleted or the writers have too many other things they have to prioritize. That what would have made it onscreen with a tv series from decades ago gets lost today due to writers having a compulsion to be as expansive as possible by throwing so much into a story. I'd prefer smaller ensembles, fewer plotlines, fewer scenes with more time allotted and a more modest pacing.

Writers nowadays want to bite off more than they can chew believing more is better when I'd argue trim things down and focus more on the fundamentals.

 

[Degra1]

TOS did it all the time, much less the rest of Star Trek. "Balance of Terror?" Did we ever see the Earth-Romulan War? What about the Gorn? Klingon first contact wasn't explored until ENT.

TOS works because it left many hints as to the history without going in to the specifics. It wasn't worried about humanity's past (Eugenics Wars in the 1990s?) but focused on getting to the future.

The idea that Star Trek, or any other TV show, doesn't suffer from many of the ills that plague modern TV can simply be attributed to the fact that there wasn't the Internet to comb over every detail. Unlike now, where every film trailer is dissected within two minutes of its being released.

I'd argue something else. Maybe just maybe shows like Star Trek worked and there was less picking them apart because they had more interesting characters and entertaining episodes that plotholes were overlooked or ignored. I Believe That people are more critical and pick things apart when they're not being entertained and all they have to do is dissect and analyze every little thing

Although I tend to feel shows were a tighter in their writing than they are now where now they feel like the endpoint is more important than plot logic

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'd argue something else. Maybe just maybe shows like Star Trek worked and there was less picking them apart because they had more interesting characters and entertaining episodes that plotholes were overlooked or ignored. I Believe That people are more critical and pick things apart when they're not being entertained and all they have to do is dissect and analyze every little thing

Although I tend to feel shows were a tighter in their writing than they are now where now they feel like the endpoint is more important than plot logic

Like, say, a ship that can turn invisible nevertheless being tracked for the entire episode, while a ship that can't turn invisible 'hides' as a radar ghost but also sends out random messages that are completely unnecessary and should logically give up the game, but somehow magically don't?

Or how about a man repeatedly described as having no emotion who still smiles and laughs all the time?

Or a professional explorer with extensive safety training who introduces his entire ship to a terrible space virus because he decided for no reason at all to just take off his hazmat glove and start touching things on a ship that had been destroyed by a terrible space virus? Or an episode that's all about overcoming a terrible space virus in time to save the ship from sinking into and burning up in a planet's atmosphere that suddenly turns into a time travel event for no reason?

Or an episode about a superpowerful alien race that's really friendly and only wants to 'test' your 'intentions', even though they very clearly almost destroyed your ship with their first test and quite possibly might have with the second, as well, but no one has any problem with that whatsoever.

Or when a ship finds a strange recreation planet where all their passing thoughts come true and spends most of the episode panicking about the dangers and insanity of it all only for the groundskeeper to pop up at the last minute and claim 'we're sorry, we didn't know you thought this was real. Now that you've panicked yourselves half to death, we'll explain how it works and why you dont need to be afraid.'

Star Trek was no tighter in writing than anything today, even in many of its best episdes. And if you really think people haven't picked it apart just as much as modern shows, you're frankly insane. It's not the amount of picking apart that has changed, it's only the visibility/scale of it because now people from all over the world can come together and share their nitpicks in one place.

 

[BillJ]

Maybe just maybe shows like Star Trek worked and there was less picking them apart because they had more interesting characters...

The original Star Trek had two characters that were explored with any depth. The later shows had uninteresting characters that they continued to focus stories on because they had nothing else to do. Seriously. How many uninteresting family episodes did we get from the spinoffs? Where they were simply trying to fill space on the schedule.

How many Soong prototypes are there floating around out there?

 

[STR]

How many Soong prototypes are there floating around out there?

One. Just one. Not two. That was a false rumor long since debunked.

 

[BillJ]

Or a professional explorer with extensive safety training who introduces his entire ship to a terrible space virus because he decided for no reason at all to just take off his hazmat glove and start touching things on a ship that had been destroyed by a terrible space virus?

As much as I love "The Naked Time", this is the ultimate facepalm moment. There's also the time travel that makes zero sense. Then, you have an Engineering deck with only one entrance, and a Chief Engineer and his assistant both leave the area while in a tight and dangerous orbit because "they are wanted on the bridge", when they simply could have called up.

Lots of Star Trek over the years have plot holes and stupidities that should break the space-time continuum.