Boycotting Thor

[Kegg]

You mean, like, I dunno, uh...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...oxx-in-the-running-to-play-Frank-Sinatra.html

In the case of Jamie Foxx and Frank Sinatra, a better comparison then MLK would be, oh, Ray Charles. Given a little golden man Foxx reputedly has that's too good of a comparison to miss.

C'mon. Just ones I'd like to see arguments about racial casting that invoke equivalent examples.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Also, when were Marvel's Asgardians retconned to be aliens?....because that's NOT how they were orginally conceived and written by Lee and Kirby. They were the actual gods. Asgard was a cyclic thing ending with Ragnarok and then there was a "reboot". That's why Thor looked more "superhero-y". I recall a story where he met or saw a version of himself from an earlier cycle and he looked much truer to Norse mythology.

The only place I recall them being called "aliens" was in a Captain America novel by Ted White, written back in the 1960s. I think Mr White had a hard time with the idea of Gods and hitech psuedo-science mixing.

The cyclical thing is a bit of a retconn introduced by Roy Thomas who, as a fan of the actual myths and a continuity nut, had to explain why the Norse Gods of the myths and Marvels' version weren't quite the same. Lee and Kirby never really addressed the issue, IIRC.

Like, for example, turning Odin from Thor's rival into his father. That's really just fucking with the myth for no good reason.

It's also totally what the comic book did. You can't complain that the movie of the comic book is changing around the source material when the comic book pretty much did a number on it first.

I'm hardly an expert, but I'm pretty sure the idea of Odin being Thor's father predates the comics by a few centuries. I know the versions I read as a kid included this. ( A few years before I ever read a Thor comis)

Wow.

A thousand years ago some white idiots met a bunch of aliens and thought they could bribe them into doing shit by killing cattle and giving them the animals "soul".

Vikings.

They raped half the woman on the planet during the hight of their empire.

Good people.

I don't think the Vikings ever had an Empire. They went a Viking far and wide but never really managed to get all their disparate groups under one banner.

There has been at least one precedent for Heimdall being black in the comics however. In 'Thor: The Mighty Avenger #6' this is what Heimdall looked like:

I think you'll find that was a "reaction" to Elba's casting and not a precedent.

The book was probably drawn well after Elba was cast.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

^ You're right. I didn't even notice the release date.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Like, for example, turning Odin from Thor's rival into his father. That's really just fucking with the myth for no good reason.

I'm hardly an expert, but I'm pretty sure the idea of Odin being Thor's father predates the comics by a few centuries. I know the versions I read as a kid included this. ( A few years before I ever read a Thor comis)

Quite right. However, the idea Loki is also Odin's son and therefore Thor's brother is not from Norse mythology.

 

[Myasishchev]

Or foster son. Afaik, Loki's still an ethnic giant* in the comics, as he is in the myths, just they transferred the brotherly-affection-combined-with-murderous-rivalry thing Odin had going with Loki to Thor, presumably because it was Journey Into Mystery featuring Thor, and not Journey Into Mystery featuring Odin. (You could make a solid argument that Odin is ultimately the more interesting mythic figure, but he's less prone to punching people, I guess.) In any event, it's not like Thor and Loki never had proper adventures together. There's was that debacle in Utgard, for example.

*This is the stupidest thing I've ever said with a straight face.

 

[Cutter John]

I dunno, this boycott could be serious. The film stands to lose tens of dollars at the box office!

 

[Zaku]

If anything, a bunch of Klan members making statements like this will only serve to benefit the film.

I am curious as to where the "alien" angle fits in. I have never heard before that the Norse Gods in the Marvel Universe were supposed to be aliens.

The Asgardians of Earth-x (or Earth 9997 if you prefer ) are aliens that were manipulated by the Celestials. As such, their appearance, powers, and identities are defined by the belief of others (vikinkgs, in this case).

http://marvel.wikia.com/Asgardians

 

[Guy Gardener]

Hank Pym in Antman and the wasp was calling Thor and his lot Aliens in issue two which i was reading today.

It's like when some one on DS9 wanted to rile the Bajorans by calling their gods "Wormhole Aliens".

And look how pissy grampies got in Final frontier when kirk asked him what he needed with a star Ship.

If most Americans have the balls to call Mexicans aliens, then you might as well admit that God is an Englishman who shouldn't deserve any greater consideration.

On another website I saw a version of this thread titled "Racists try to boycott Thor "

 

[exalted one]

Casting of Idris Elba as Heimdall is clearly a marketing decision. I mean, since Heimdall is described as "whitest of the Æsir," casting him with a black actor is best thing you can do for publicity. It's clever, it's fun, it's unusual, even somewhat cool. Casting a black Thor would be outright stupid, but casting a black Heimdall is just having a bit of creative fun with the source material. If the whitest of the Æsir is black, what good could we expect from the rest of them?
Remember our own Patrick Stewart playing a white Othello to a black Desdemona? Exactly.

Honestly, as an European, I don't really have a problem with racially different actors playing white roles. Different skin color isn't a problem: different culture is. Here in Europe, third-world immigrants are creating rapidly growing "tumors" of their own cultures inside our cities, refusing to adapt to us and to honor our customs, even to learn our language. Those people are a major problem. So why should I have any problem with Idris Elba, who obviously has no trouble adapting to our society and learning our language? He's a cool guy. I can't care less about his skin color.

 

[iguana_tonante]

(You could make a solid argument that Odin is ultimately the more interesting mythic figure, but he's less prone to punching people, I guess.)

Indeed. He would probably impale them with Gungnir, and then convince everybody it was all their fault. That's why he is king, I suppose.

 

[Kegg]

Casting a black Thor would be outright stupid,

Look.

The comic Thor doesn't even dress like a tenth century Viking. Nothing stupid about making him black.

But it wouldn't happen, and not out of interest for fidelity to the comics or myth - superhero movies just tend to have white leads who have black friends. Don't rock the boat.

Those people are a major problem. So why should I have any problem with Idris Elba, who obviously has no trouble adapting to our society and learning our language?

Again:

Idris Elba is British. He was born in London. His parents came from two different African counries. He didn't 'adapt' to European society, he grew up as a European.

Or foster son. Afaik, Loki's still an ethnic giant* in the comics, as he is in the myths,

Right it's been a while since I read the Poetic and Prose Eddas but I missed the bit were Loki was an ethnic giant. I remember Loki as the quintessential trickster god of ambiguous loyalties.

(You could make a solid argument that Odin is ultimately the more interesting mythic figure, but he's less prone to punching people, I guess.)

Indeed. On the other end of the spectrum from Stan Lee, Richard Wagner's take on Norse mythology just has Donner (Thor) as a nondescript part of the ensemble of other gods who disappear after the prologue opera and focuses a heck lot more of his attention on Wotan (Odin) and his issues.

Wagner I suspect wouldn't like the idea of a black Heimdall either, on account of noted bigotry.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Here in Europe, third-world immigrants are creating rapidly growing "tumors" of their own cultures inside our cities, refusing to adapt to us and to honor our customs, even to learn our language. Those people are a major problem.

Speaking as a European, I don't recognise that picture.

 

[theenglish]

Honestly, as an European, I don't really have a problem with racially different actors playing white roles. Different skin color isn't a problem: different culture is. Here in Europe, third-world immigrants are creating rapidly growing "tumors" of their own cultures inside our cities, refusing to adapt to us and to honor our customs, even to learn our language. Those people are a major problem. So why should I have any problem with Idris Elba, who obviously has no trouble adapting to our society and learning our language? He's a cool guy. I can't care less about his skin colmr.

I'm sorry but this is still a very "old European" argument. In the "New World" of Canada there is a true multi-cultural society in many regions. People of my parents generation (I am in my forties) had the same attitude that you express. Back in the seventies my grandfather was worried about immigrants destroying culture.

Well culture "adapted" to include many different cultures in one.

The problem in Europe right now is that many (and of course I am not talking about the intellectual and open minded people--so please don't think I am generalizing to everyone) have not opened their vision of culture to include a multi-ethnic component as many Europeans have never abandoned this superiority complex toward the rest of the world.

I could also mention the current conservative movement in the States as well, but that has nothing to do with the topic.

More on topic, I am surprised that nobody has noted that Nick Fury has changed ethnicity in the movies and the Ultimate line of comics. This is a much more relevant example than many of the ones mentioned earlier. So far, his race has not been an issue (although some issues might arise in the Captain America movie if Fury is indeed serving in WWII).

 

[IndyJones]

Well I am deeply offended that Hollywood thinks that they can take an actor and cast him as a god when he clearly doesn't exhibit the same physical and racial characteristics of that god. Where will this insanity end?

...<Whistles>...

 

[JarodRussell]

Problem is, when you show a black guy getting crucified, you'll again be called a racist.

 

[Myasishchev]

Right it's been a while since I read the Poetic and Prose Eddas but I missed the bit were Loki was an ethnic giant. I remember Loki as the quintessential trickster god of ambiguous loyalties.

The Prose Edda names him as one of the Aesir, but also recites that he was the son of Farbauti and Laufey (or Nal), definitely a giant and probably a giantess, respectively. I've always thought of Loki as an honoary member of the Aesir, based on his associations with Odin, but I guess it's open to interpretation. Something like half the "Aesir" are technically another godly tribe, anyway, so they clearly have fluid boundaries as to what constitutes a proper As.

(You could make a solid argument that Odin is ultimately the more interesting mythic figure, but he's less prone to punching people, I guess.)

Indeed. On the other end of the spectrum from Stan Lee, Richard Wagner's take on Norse mythology just has Donner (Thor) as a nondescript part of the ensemble of other gods who disappear after the prologue opera and focuses a heck lot more of his attention on Wotan (Odin) and his issues.

The only interpretation of the Ring of the Nieblung I could stand was P. Craig Russell's awesome comic book, as I am not a huge fan of opera, and not through lack of exposure because my dad loves opera.

Liked the first three, disliked Gotterdammerung, which despite its coolest name seems to focus primarily on the interplay of boring new characters, occurring in some awful little Rhenish castle.

 

[Shatnertage]

Anyone who wants to see less Idris Elba is just wrong.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Of course it would be utterly ridiculous. But I was going for the point that because of that, it'd have no value other than the Hollywood obsession with "shaking things up" just for the hell of it, without any substance to base it on or back it up. I don't really care... I'm fine with whoever plays a role... so long as there's a reason based on story and substance behind it, and it's not just out of novelty.

This isn't for novelty, it's because Idris Elba is one of the best actors in the world.

 

[theenglish]

Problem is, when you show a black guy getting crucified, you'll again be called a racist.

Even though this is probably the more historically accurate depiction.

 

[Kegg]

The Prose Edda names him as one of the Aesir, but also recites that he was the son of Farbauti and Laufey (or Nal), definitely a giant and probably a giantess, respectively.

Yeah but is there any reference to Loki himself being a giant.. and more importantly where did the 'ethnic' thing go?

The only interpretation of the Ring of the Nieblung I could stand was P. Craig Russell's awesome comic book, as I am not a huge fan of opera, and not through lack of exposure because my dad loves opera.

I love Wagner. Even in spite of Wagner. He's very grandoliquent and clearly thinks highly of hs bombastically melodramatc scores, but even so he's a lot of fun. I was pretty much hooked when Wotan woke up from his dream of Valhalla; Wagner is great at the Big Majestic Idea music.

Really I have the highly anachronistic view that Norse mythology movie = vehicle for Wagnerian music, which of course from an 'accurate' perspective makes as much sense as, well... a black Heimdall.

But damn it. Gimme an epic film version of Der Ring des Nibelungen!*

Liked the first three, disliked Gotterdammerung, which despite its coolest name seems to focus primarily on the interplay of boring new characters, occurring in some awful little Rhenish castle.

You and George Bernard Shaw are peas in a pod on that one.

*Fritz Lang doesn't count he was adapting the Nibelunglied, a German story that was part of the inspiration for Wagner's opera but not the whole thing, also, lack of Wagner music because silent.