Borg or Species 8472?

[Refuge]

I get why Janeway sided with the Borg, they actually played victim quite pathetically. I get that once Species 8472 were unleashed they turned defence into attack really, really well wanting to cleanse the whole galaxy, but if she had known the truth that the Borg had attacked first, do you think Janeway would've sided with the Borg? Unlike the Borg, Species 8472 could be reasoned with.

 

[Voth commando1]

They didn't know that at the time and even in In The Flesh Boothby Species 8472 states that he is unsure if his superiors would agree to negotiations.

Also Species 8472 would not necessarily even be open to negotiation with species from a realm where another species had just attacked.

Its clear though not everybody thought that way-Arturis and his people clearly wanted Species 8472 to prevail.

 

[Refuge]

Species 8472 were minding their own business until the Borg. One couldn't blame them from not trusting the Borg or Voyager. Even that poor lone one in 'Prey' was thrown to the wolves by Seven (bitch I say) and Janeway not being able to control her. Yet they did come to the negotiation table in The Flesh.

Just what exchange of technology really went down? At the very least Voyager owed them a chance to protect themselves. Dear little pets that they were, lol. That one kissing Chakotay, when really he would have been repugnant to her.

 

[Voth commando1]

That an illusion she(we don't even know if it was a she as they have five genders) came up with as part of their covering training.

Seven's actions in Prey were morally wrong but tactically sound given their situation(a credit to the writers-one of my favorite eps).

There was no real exchange of technology besides Voyager giving them the nanoweapons.

Also as I previously said that was just one outpost and I don't think Boothby 8742 was the highest ranking one around.

Species 8472 supposedly lived alone in their realm and given just how alien they are-tensions would be in the cards if not full scale war which the federation couldn't possibly handle.

 

[Refuge]

Isn't it a testament to Species 8472 that they could have the nanoweapons and yet not be seen to cause any further problems?

I maintain a loathing for Seven in this episode and the one after,(though I like her otherwise). She did not have to do what she did. She wanted to. Plus she disobeyed orders. Hypocrite, she of all people should have known what it was like to be separated from her kind. As if the Borg hadn't done enough to Species 8472.

 

[Voth commando1]

The hirogen had Voyager outgunned and Tom couldn't hold them off for much longer, and B'llanna was barely holding the engines together. The hirogen were not going to back down they would either get their prey or destroy Voyager a compensation.

It was that or destruction.

 

[Refuge]

IF it was Seven or B'Ellana or some alien who had sought asylum on Voyager who was beamed to a fate of torture and misery, it would not have been business as usual for Voyager. Janeway would have tried to rescue them.

I hope that it did that suicide thing.. but it was sad to think it had to die that way or worse. Seven tried to make it about her individuality but she wanted that creature sacrificed right from the start.

 

[Voth commando1]

Not under those circumstances.

 

[Refuge]

I felt Seven carried with her the hostility the Borg felt for Species 8472. She should have thrown into the brig for her actions.

 

[Voth commando1]

She was put under house arrest for all intents and purposes, denied computer access and was told explicitly that any attempt to circumvent those orders(and presumably any other attempts at disobedience) would have resulted in her being thrown in the brig.

 

[Refuge]

Janeway was in a tricky position with Seven. It was not like she could demote her and she had on her hands what was in effect a brat. Seven's fledging humanity was going through the teenage, 'I want the last word', stage. Trying to make out Janeway confused her about her individuality when it was contrary to Janeway's own feelings was incredibly self-centered. The creature was only stranded because of the legacy created by the Borg and Voyager. They owed it just a little more care than they gave.

I blame command to a point. Seven was given too much responsibility when she was clearly going solo and surrounded by bumbling fools.

 

[Voth commando1]

Seven was clearly competent at the tasks she was given. Her work in the astrometrics lab more than likely substantially helped Voyager in getting home, dealing with hostile aliens, etc...

Because of her Borgness though she bumped heads with Torres, had a very uncomfortable potentially bad situation with Harry Kim, and broke out more than a few times causing Janeway to have to go rescue her.

And Seven's statements about individuality I thought were a genuine protest, she felt that she wasn't actually you know developing as an individual only as much as Janeway wanted, never more or in a direction Janeway feared.

Also IIUC Seven wasn't officially part of the chain of command. She had her assigned duties and could order Harry Kim but she probably ranked beneath Torres even Paris.

 

[Refuge]

Regards Seven I don't think it was just her Borgness that made her immature. She was assimilated as a child so her human component was also retarded. Given her intellect which she would've inherited from the genes of her parents and the Borg data base and her adult appearance, the others tended to overrate Seven. Within her was a socially and emotionally stunted individual that Janeway had to mother as well as captain. There were going to be boundaries and the mistake was made in this episode at the creatures cost. It wasn't just Seven but she 'pulled the trigger,'

 

[Voth commando1]

Yeah I would concede her social development was retarded if not utterly ruined by being assimilated as a child.

That's why Janeway was so lenient.

 

[marlboro]

I wonder why the writers decided to change Species 8472 so much from their earliest appearance.

 

[Prax]

They looked the same in every episode they were featured in I thought

 

[Refuge]

There was a definite alien look about them and that first jolt of their presence in Scorpion was full on scary. Loved it. The eye, the telepathy. I felt in their posture though there was something vulnerable about them and lonely. They were threatened by the Borg and then by those from the Federation, from Earth.

The concept of fluidic space was inspired.

 

[marlboro]

I didn't mean their physical appearance. I was wondering why they chose to take a fierce and extremely alien species, and turn them into something so...ordinary. I don't know, it just seemed like a waste of a cool new species.

How would the story have worked if, instead of species 8872, it had been a group of Voth who wanted to return to Earth?

1)They have extremely advanced tech so that it would be plausible that they could pull off some of the same tricks as 8472.

2) They were shown to be intelligent/civilized so that Janeway could negotiate with them without huge changes in how they were previously presented. To me, 8472 seemed to be defanged in this episode. The Voth could be dangerous, but still capable of being reasoned with.

3) Most importantly - the Voth would actually have a good reason to want to return to Earth since it's their home planet.

 

[Voth commando1]

The Voth leadership doesn't believe in the whole Distant Origin theory though and any Voth that choose to return home would be dissidents and heretics.

 

[marlboro]

So maybe the Voth leadership want to destroy the evidence? Or maybe a group of believers are sick of the Voth leadership and want to reclaim their true home in the Alpha Quadrant?