Borg or Species 8472?

[Voth commando1]

I don't think the Voth leadership would say okay Distant Origin theory true let's rev up those transwarp engines and reconquer our homeworld!

And if it's dissidents I imagine they would get to earth, be welcomed by the Federation, they would be debriefed(probably) and given asylum.

As for Species 8472 being defanged-I wouldn't be so hard on that, but for the most generous interpretation they actually wanted to wrap up the 8472 arc. So In the Flesh was a way to do that.

 

[marlboro]

Got a quick question about "Scorpion" that's probably been asked and answered many times before.

Why didn't Janeway demand that the Borg send Voyager back to the Alpha Quadrant as one of her conditions for sharing the weapon?

Back to the OP's question: I think Janeway would have made the deal with the Borg even if she knew they started the conflict. Chakotay made a very eloquent case for why they should turn back and try to find another way home, but Janeway was not going to be persuaded to waste even six months

 

[Refuge]

Species 8472 were not ordinary.

 

[Voth commando1]

Any heretics and dissidents would probably be granted asylum and some humans would welcome them as our long lost terrestrial cousins children of terra.

 

[fireproof78]

I get why Janeway sided with the Borg, they actually played victim quite pathetically. I get that once Species 8472 were unleashed they turned defence into attack really, really well wanting to cleanse the whole galaxy, but if she had known the truth that the Borg had attacked first, do you think Janeway would've sided with the Borg? Unlike the Borg, Species 8472 could be reasoned with.

There was, unfortunately, no real indication that Species 8472 was willing to come to the negotiating table, especially when they clearly had the advantage.

 

[Voth commando1]

Yeah even in In The Flesh Species 8472 they were downright terrified on the nanoweapons-they knew Voyager had the drop on em with that.

 

[Refuge]

The Borg were and remained far more unreasonable.

I do wonder once Species 8472 had the nanoweapon technology why they quietly returned to Fluid Space. The Borg would never back down. For Species 8472 it was about protecting themselves and that is when they tried to remove the threats to them. Once they realized the threats were no longer they moved on. Borg mentality was about conquering.

 

[Gary7]

No way to reason with 8472. Extremely hostile. The Borg incursion into their space set off alarming anger. No reasoning with them. They were so pissed, they decided that the "normal space" region of the universe needed to be annihilated... all life... even though it was just the Borg who attacked them. That sort of says it all. They viewed every other species as weak and not worth their time with negotiation. Janeway did the right thing. At least they could figure out and deal with the Borg. 8472 would probably adapt to defend against the Borg nanoprobes in due time... and then the Federation wouldn't have a prayer.

 

[Six of Twelve]

I think part of the reason Janeway allied with the Borg is that they were the devil we knew and the 8472s were just so very alien and, of course, there was no way to reason with them.

 

[marlboro]

But why not take Chakotey's advice and wait a little while and gather a bit more info before making such a huge decision? The fate of the galaxy could have be at stake - look before you leap. But, noooo, Janeway would hear none of that from her trusted first officer. She decided to give the Borg a bioweapon that could/would lead them to assimilating a species that could make them exponentially more powerful just so she "wouldn't waste six months" on a journey that's supposed to take 75 years.

Would taking six months to gather info on Specie 8472 been a bigger waste of time than exploring the Amelia Earhart planet, the planet with the psychotic clown, or futzing around with a holodeck full of crazy Irish villagers?

What's worse, it turns out her hasty decision was wrong. The Borg try to break the alliance in "Scorpion", "In the Flesh" reveals that Species 8472 isn't as savage as previously believed, and "Hope and Fear" lets us know that the Borg were able to assimilate Arturis' entire civilization as a direct result of the Borg winning the war.

Janeway to Arturis:"I'm sorry for what happened to your people, but try to understand. I couldn't have known."

Well, maybe if you had followed Chakotay's advice...

I swear, I think Chakotay must have felt like Ricky Ricardo after dealing with Janeway's zany schemes for seven years.

 

[Refuge]

That's entirely overstating the case and I'm on Species 8472's side..

 

[fireproof78]

But why not take Chakotey's advice and wait a little while and gather a bit more info before making such a huge decision? The fate of the galaxy could have be at stake - look before you leap. But, noooo, Janeway would hear none of that from her trusted first officer. She decided to give the Borg a bioweapon that could/would lead them to assimilating a species that could make them exponentially more powerful just so she "wouldn't waste six months" on a journey that's supposed to take 75 years.

Would taking six months to gather info on Specie 8472 been a bigger waste of time than exploring the Amelia Earhart planet, the planet with the psychotic clown, or futzing around with a holodeck full of crazy Irish villagers?

What's worse, it turns out her hasty decision was wrong. The Borg try to break the alliance in "Scorpion", "In the Flesh" reveals that Species 8472 isn't as savage as previously believed, and "Hope and Fear" lets us know that the Borg were able to assimilate Arturis' entire civilization as a direct result of the Borg winning the war.

Janeway to Arturis:"I'm sorry for what happened to your people, but try to understand. I couldn't have known."

Well, maybe if you had followed Chakotay's advice...

I swear, I think Chakotay must have felt like Ricky Ricardo after dealing with Janeway's zany schemes for seven years.

I honestly don't know if waiting would have presented more information. Would Species 8472 be satisfied that the destruction of the Borg meant their space was no longer in danger? Or, since they view life in non-fluidic space to be "impure" then would they turn their eyes on the rest of the galaxy, deciding, like the Founders did, to take the war to the threat, rather than wait for the threat to find them?

 

[Voth commando1]

Someone should game Species 8472 vs the Dominion.

 

[Refuge]

Species 8472 being (apparently) the only life in their space would have to view from its experiences other life forms as a threat. They encounter the Borg and are attacked. They encounter Voyager and the threat is worse. I think their first reaction to purify the Galaxy was based on the Borg. Thereafter they feared Voyager and were tracing that threat back to Earth. They had become selective..

I wouldn't trust the Borg or the Federation if I were them. Yet they were open to negotiation. Their level of intelligence made the Borg appear like thugs.

 

[Voth commando1]

They clearly weren't slackers and I think could thrash most of the alpha quadrant unassisted if they so desired.

 

[fireproof78]

Species 8472 being (apparently) the only life in their space would have to view from its experiences other life forms as a threat. They encounter the Borg and are attacked. They encounter Voyager and the threat is worse. I think their first reaction to purify the Galaxy was based on the Borg. Thereafter they feared Voyager and were tracing that threat back to Earth. They had become selective..

I wouldn't trust the Borg or the Federation if I were them. Yet they were open to negotiation. Their level of intelligence made the Borg appear like thugs.

I would imagine that, given the level of research they did in order to understand the Federation that negotiation became more of a possibility. Though, I doubt the leaders of Species 8472 would be as likely to trust them as the contingent in the Delta Quadrant.

 

[publiusr]

I can half-see the giant space amoeba coming from their universe.

 

[Refuge]

No way to reason with 8472. Extremely hostile. The Borg incursion into their space set off alarming anger. No reasoning with them. They were so pissed, they decided that the "normal space" region of the universe needed to be annihilated... all life... even though it was just the Borg who attacked them. That sort of says it all. They viewed every other species as weak and not worth their time with negotiation. Janeway did the right thing. At least they could figure out and deal with the Borg. 8472 would probably adapt to defend against the Borg nanoprobes in due time... and then the Federation wouldn't have a prayer.

If that was the case then when Species 8472 obtained nanoweapon technology (via negotiation) why didn't they carry on with their hostility for the sake of hostility? And out of the two, the Borg and Species 8472 who remaining the biggest threat to Voayger and the Federation?

I tend to agree that Species 8472 looked more alien and triggered human fears..

 

[fireproof78]

If that was the case then when Species 8472 obtained nanoweapon technology (via negotiation) why didn't they carry on with their hostility for the sake of hostility? And out of the two, the Borg and Species 8472 who remaining the biggest threat to Voayger and the Federation?

I tend to agree that Species 8472 looked more alien and triggered human fears..

Who says they didn't? Boothby-alien said he was taking it back to their leaders. Who is to say they didn't launch a strike on the Borg after the destruction of the transwarp hub?

 

[Refuge]

Weren't the Borg in Endgame and post the Flesh?