BLSSDWLF's TOS Enterprise WIP

[Mytran]

TMP makes the same implication with an impulse engine.
...
That's why to it makes more sense that the first warp engine was actually an impulse engine since warp and impulse essentially are both types of field propulsion.

It tallies nicely with Balance of Terror too - for the episode to make any sense, the Romulan vessel had to be capable of FTL travel and it has what appear to be warp nacelles, with Scotty describes their power source as "simple impulse". Impulse Power could very well power the warp field machinery.

For this reason, I think "impulse" is better described as a source of power rather than a form of propulsion - it's just that propulsion is what impulse is commonly used for.

 

[Gagarin]

Sorry guys.
Banging my head on wall re: impulse as "power" generation, a field drive, or a FTL system, or making sense of 'simple impulse', or trying to make sense of 'the first warp drive actually being an impulse drive.'

I'd agree that it seems like the FIRST warp drive of ZC could or should have been powered by a fusion reactor, and that a matter-anti-matter reactor with dilithium was a generation or two later (hardware generations...not people generations).

And maybe these fusion reactors on starships can make the impulse engines go darn near lightspeed, or maybe beyond if there is some field-trickery going on... but the 'power'/'electricity' components are seperate than the 'makes it go' components ---even if they're next to eachother. You can have working fusion power with a broken 'thrust' part. If your reactor isn't in your naccelle, you can still have matter/anti-matter reactor power even if your spacewarp coils are eaten up by space bugs.

In my opinion, the most annoying thing about TNG-Treknology was "warp core". Cause, really, it does more than power the warp drive. And there's no spacewarp happening in that 'core'. Just lots of jiggowatts.

 

[BK613]

Maybe even nuclear engines before fusion. The Botany Bay was powered by them anyway. (Hmm I never thought of this before: No DY-100 class or DY-500 class in the opening montage for ENT. Evidence of a parallel universe? )

Agree with the idea of the separation of power generation and warp field production. Allows for hypothetical ship A which uses fusion for both Newtonian and non-Newtonian propulsion and able to switch between them because there is linkage to both systems. (A M/AM reactor could also be included but is not required.)

Hypothetical ship B uses fusion solely for Newtonian propulsion. No linkage is included to the non-Newtonian systems because the power output of fusion is no longer sufficient for those components and they are powered by M/AM instead.

Other combinations are also possible...

 

[Gagarin]

Other combinations are also possible...

You will find it... an effective combination.

 

[Saquist]

Sorry guys.
Banging my head on wall re: impulse as "power" generation, a field drive, or a FTL system, or making sense of 'simple impulse', or trying to make sense of 'the first warp drive actually being an impulse drive.'

I'd agree that it seems like the FIRST warp drive of ZC could or should have been powered by a fusion reactor, and that a matter-anti-matter reactor with dilithium was a generation or two later (hardware generations...not people generations).

And maybe these fusion reactors on starships can make the impulse engines go darn near lightspeed, or maybe beyond if there is some field-trickery going on... but the 'power'/'electricity' components are seperate than the 'makes it go' components ---even if they're next to eachother. You can have working fusion power with a broken 'thrust' part. If your reactor isn't in your naccelle, you can still have matter/anti-matter reactor power even if your spacewarp coils are eaten up by space bugs.

In my opinion, the most annoying thing about TNG-Treknology was "warp core". Cause, really, it does more than power the warp drive. And there's no spacewarp happening in that 'core'. Just lots of jiggowatts.

You know that does indeed spur me aswell. They through around the warp core lingo around quite a bit. It is nothing more than a reactor and it's power is being used for everything. That's what I trip over a lot

There isn't really nothing special about warp plasma other than it being high energy. They act like is some sort of 4th Dimensional energy.

TMP makes the same implication with an impulse engine.
...
That's why to it makes more sense that the first warp engine was actually an impulse engine since warp and impulse essentially are both types of field propulsion.

It tallies nicely with Balance of Terror too - for the episode to make any sense, the Romulan vessel had to be capable of FTL travel and it has what appear to be warp nacelles, with Scotty describes their power source as "simple impulse". Impulse Power could very well power the warp field machinery.

For this reason, I think "impulse" is better described as a source of power rather than a form of propulsion - it's just that propulsion is what impulse is commonly used for.

That's one of reason why i subscribe to the idea.
Not only that but at impulse The Enterprise D and A have both been seen reversing with out the aid barriers retro fire. And in ENTERPRISE the ship apparently experienced some sort of time travel event due to the impulse engines.

Maybe even nuclear engines before fusion. The Botany Bay was powered by them anyway. (Hmm I never thought of this before: No DY-100 class or DY-500 class in the opening montage for ENT. Evidence of a parallel universe? )

Agree with the idea of the separation of power generation and warp field production. Allows for hypothetical ship A which uses fusion for both Newtonian and non-Newtonian propulsion and able to switch between them because there is linkage to both systems. (A M/AM reactor could also be included but is not required.)

Hypothetical ship B uses fusion solely for Newtonian propulsion. No linkage is included to the non-Newtonian systems because the power output of fusion is no longer sufficient for those components and they are powered by M/AM instead.

Other combinations are also possible...

That's what my colleagues would call a proper "Tech Tree)

 

[blssdwlf]

I'd even suggest further that on the TOS tech tree that the original power distribution system started without any special crystals in the mix and that at some point Lithium was used and then in middle of S1 switched to Dilithium. We've seen that in emergency conditions that the Lithium/Dilithium circuit can be bypassed if the bypass circuits weren't always being burned out

 

[Captain Robert April]

Are there any references in ENT to dilithium crystals?

 

[blssdwlf]

Are there any references in ENT to dilithium crystals?

Actually there are. Very TNG-like references as crystals and as the dilithium matrix, where the matter and antimatter react.

 

[Captain Robert April]

So much for Tyler's line in "The Cage" referring to the discovery of dilithium. Or lithium, for that matter.

 

[blssdwlf]

So much for Tyler's line in "The Cage" referring to the discovery of dilithium. Or lithium, for that matter.

I'll have to check that sometime as I didn't find a reference to lithium/dilithium in "The Cage".

Nevertheless, the very functioning of the warp engines is totally different between TOS and TNG+. If TOS were the same as TNG with the dilithium mediating the M/AM reaction, Scotty would've blown the ship to bits when he ejected the dilithium crystal assembly when the engines were at full power in "The Paradise Syndrome"

 

[Mytran]

So much for Tyler's line in "The Cage" referring to the discovery of dilithium. Or lithium, for that matter.

I'll have to check that sometime as I didn't find a reference to lithium/dilithium in "The Cage".

There isn't one. It has been speculated however that the advances in (di)lithium technology is what's being referred to here:

TYLER: And you won't believe how fast you can get back. Well the time barrier's been broken. Our new ships can-

Nevertheless, the very functioning of the warp engines is totally different between TOS and TNG+. If TOS were the same as TNG with the dilithium mediating the M/AM reaction, Scotty would've blown the ship to bits when he ejected the dilithium crystal assembly when the engines were at full power in "The Paradise Syndrome"

I suppose there could be some auto power-down safety feature to prevent such (amusing) incidents? In fact this appears to be what happens in Paradise Syndrome; Scotty raises the crystal from the pedestal just before they try the Deflectors on the asteroid, and power drops all over the ship.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I don't remember Scotty futzing with the crystals in "The Paradise Syndrome"...

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't remember Scotty futzing with the crystals in "The Paradise Syndrome"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhCfFR0w0ho

Watch at 16:32.

@Mytran - I don't know about an auto-power down feature as the ship's engines are at full power and Scotty non-chalantly walks over and ejects the dilithium crystal assembly to look at it and tell Spock it is failing.

If the reactor did an auto-shutdown, then based on the last known info about starting back up the engine it'd take minutes to do the "imploding engine restart" from "The Naked Time".

But I don't think the reactor ever shutdown as the dialogue and fx implied the reactor was running but Scotty's actions just took power away from equipment downstream.

 

[Mytran]

Poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean that the entire reactor shut down, just that there may have been some way to isolate the dilithium circuit for safe inspection.

As to how important the DCC is, in Elann of Troyius the lack of a functioning crystal is disasterous:

SCOTT: I've got bad news, Captain. The entire dilithium crystal converter assembly is fused. No chance of repair. It's completely unusable.
KIRK: No chance of restoring warp drive?
SCOTT [OC]: Not without dilithium crystals. We can't even generate enough power to fire our weapons.

Of course other sabotage had also gone on, so it may well be that under ideal conditions routine inspection (and replacement) of the crystal while the enfines are running is no big deal.

 

[Captain Robert April]

The difference between TNG's setup and TOS' is that the dilithium crystal matrix is separate from the M/ARC during TOS, while during TNG, the dilithium crystals are held right there in the intermix chamber itself.

Remember, the whole purpose of the crystals is to amplify the energy from the antimatter reaction so that a decent warp field can be generated. So, as long as the warp drive isn't engaged, then there's no problem popping the crystals out to take a look at them. If Geordi tried that on the Enterprise-D, yeah, you'd have a very big problem, but on the original Enterprise, the intermix chamber is a couple of decks down. Still wouldn't be a smart move on Scotty's part to pull those crystals out while the ship was at warp, but not necessarily the instant death for all aboard that's being put forward.

 

[blssdwlf]

Right (and better written than my short comparison) - sorry if I wasn't clear earlier

The difference between TNG's setup and TOS' is that the dilithium crystal matrix is separate from the M/ARC during TOS, while during TNG, the dilithium crystals are held right there in the intermix chamber itself.

Remember, the whole purpose of the crystals is to amplify the energy from the antimatter reaction so that a decent warp field can be generated. So, as long as the warp drive isn't engaged, then there's no problem popping the crystals out to take a look at them. If Geordi tried that on the Enterprise-D, yeah, you'd have a very big problem, but on the original Enterprise, the intermix chamber is a couple of decks down. Still wouldn't be a smart move on Scotty's part to pull those crystals out while the ship was at warp, but not necessarily the instant death for all aboard that's being put forward.

 

[BK613]

Are there any references in ENT to dilithium crystals?

Actually there are. Very TNG-like references as crystals and as the dilithium matrix, where the matter and antimatter react.

Yay another reason for me to kick ENT to the curb

 

[blssdwlf]

There were some interesting bits from Enterprise. My way of making sense of it was to simply put it in a different universe/timeline

 

[Captain Rob]

I don't remember Scotty futzing with the crystals in "The Paradise Syndrome"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhCfFR0w0ho

Watch at 16:32.

@Mytran - I don't know about an auto-power down feature as the ship's engines are at full power and Scotty non-chalantly walks over and ejects the dilithium crystal assembly to look at it and tell Spock it is failing.

If the reactor did an auto-shutdown, then based on the last known info about starting back up the engine it'd take minutes to do the "imploding engine restart" from "The Naked Time".

But I don't think the reactor ever shutdown as the dialogue and fx implied the reactor was running but Scotty's actions just took power away from equipment downstream.

Well, Scotty refers to dilithium circuits, as in plural. But when he opens that one unit, the bridge lights go out. Even though it appears that the crystal still has power running through it, since it 's glowing.

 

[blssdwlf]

Well, Scotty refers to dilithium circuits, as in plural. But when he opens that one unit, the bridge lights go out. Even though it appears that the crystal still has power running through it, since it 's glowing.

It was a clarification to an early post. Basically, if the reactor was built like the ones in TNG then ejecting a dilithium crystal while at full power isn't a good idea.

Fortunately for Scotty, the TOS power setup had the dilithium (and lithium and before that, who knows?) as part of the power distribution and not mediating the matter/antimatter reaction