Blade Runner 2

[Captain of the USS Averof]

Hmm... yeah. But it gives the impression that a blade runner is a cop investigating people and not just an assassin. If all they had to do was shoot anyone they believed was a replicant, the movie would be a lot shorter and uglier, and Deckard would be a less sympathetic character.

"Replicants were declared illegal on earth - under penalty of death. Special police squads - BLADE RUNNER UNITS - had orders to shoot to kill, upon detection, any trespassing Replicant. This was not called execution. It was called retirement."

"DECKARD: I'd quit because I'd had a belly full of killing. But then I'd rather be a killer than a victim. And that's exactly what Bryant's threat about little people meant*. So I hooked in once more, thinking that if I couldn't take it, I'd split later."

* (This also is one of the many hints about Deckard's true nature that exists since 1981 and it's not from 1992 as people claim.)

 

[sojourner]

Reading way too much into that line. It's merely a commentary on civilians vs establishment.

 

[psCargile]

I would imagine they wanted to verify the reports and identities of the suspects to avoid "retire[ing] a human by mistake".

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I would imagine they wanted to verify the reports and identities of the suspects to avoid "retire[ing] a human by mistake".

If I remember correctly, the plot of K.W. Jeter's Blade Runner 2: Edge of Human involves the possibility that one of the Replicants Deckard retired was not a Replicant. I feel like I should reread the sequels (and, for that matter, read Eye and Talon for the first time -- I tracked one down and have never read it) before the new film comes out.

 

[jaime]

If I remember correctly, the plot of K.W. Jeter's Blade Runner 2: Edge of Human involves the possibility that one of the Replicants Deckard retired was not a Replicant. I feel like I should reread the sequels (and, for that matter, read Eye and Talon for the first time -- I tracked one down and have never read it) before the new film comes out.

Priss. They implied she was just a runaway teenager. It goes a bit wrong, because it tries to be a sequel to both the film and the book, without ever really reconciling the two. I tried the next one, but frankly...they were just silly. One or two nice bits, but ultimately just silly.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Priss. They implied she was just a runaway teenager. It goes a bit wrong, because it tries to be a sequel to both the film and the book, without ever really reconciling the two.

Yeah, I remember Jack Isidore being a character in Edge of Human.

BOOM! Studios did a prequel comic to the novel, Dust to Dust, by Chris Roberson that wasn't bad. It is kinda rushed -- it had been planned for 12 issues, and BOOM! cut it down to 8 about midway through so it all wraps up quickly. I admired their full-text 24-issue adaptation of DADOES? far more than I liked it. (By "full-text," the adaptation has every word from the novel. Including the dialogue tags.)

 

[Steve Roby]

Reading way too much into that line. It's merely a commentary on civilians vs establishment.

That's exactly how I read that line, too. It's a classic noir bit -- the guy who used to be on the inside is on the outside and gets forced into something he doesn't want to do and may not survive.

I would imagine they wanted to verify the reports and identities of the suspects to avoid "retire[ing] a human by mistake".

Yep. I think the script has Rachel asking Deckard that to point out to the viewer that it's a distinct possibility.

If I remember correctly, the plot of K.W. Jeter's Blade Runner 2: Edge of Human involves the possibility that one of the Replicants Deckard retired was not a Replicant. I feel like I should reread the sequels (and, for that matter, read Eye and Talon for the first time -- I tracked one down and have never read it) before the new film comes out.

Frustrating as those books are in many ways, I'm likely to reread them this year, too. And Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep, of course. And maybe We Can Build You, which has some connections to DADOES. And that last volume of PKD's Selected Letters for 1980-82. And the BOOM Studios comics, which have been sitting on a shelf waiting for the right time to be read.

Might be a good year to watch my DVD box set of Total Recall 2070, too. It was theoretically based on Total Recall, and it did have some elements from the story, but it also borrowed a lot from Blade Runner. Started out as a horribly derivative bad idea for the duration of the introductory movie, but steadily improved to the point where I was really disappointed it never got a second season.

I wonder if my old Westwood Blade Runner game would play on this laptop...

 

[Tosk]

Reading way too much into that line. It's merely a commentary on civilians vs establishment.

Exactly. If it were meant the other way, then we'd have to assume that both Bryant and Deckard already knew that Deckard was a Rep.

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

^ Bryant (and later Gaff) knew and Deckard suspected it. It ties (at least for me) with Rachael's line about Rick taking that test on himself. And Deckard remaining silent. Nothing concrete of course.

 

[Tosk]

Deckard suspected it

There's a big difference between suspecting it and stating flat-out that it is certain.

 

[jaime]

'We found that after a while, they began developing their own made up narrative response. So we gave them a story buffer, words that were symbolic with their reading. We hoped they would understand.'

'Metaphors. You're talking about Metaphors'

***
'More literal than literal, that's our motto at the NoSubtle corporation'

***

'Your husband sees a production error, a man steps into pinlighting meant for another actor. He likes it so much, he pins it on the wall, decides it's intended. The man is obviously a replicant who doesn't know.'

'I wouldn't let him, I should be enough for him.'

***

'Here...it's a picture of me thinking about a symbolic image from earths history about chasing something rare, beautiful and unobtainable.'

'You remember a script? One summer? You read it by your window....'
'... I read it by the window, spinning its story. It was full of metaphoric lines, and homage. When it hatched, it didn't make much money at the box office, but then years later a thousand kooky fan theories came out and ate it.'

'Ok...remember your screen writers? Ridley had them play script doctor. One of them showed a voice over, but when it was the other ones turn he played chicken and claimed not to write it, huh, you remember that? But he slipped up and quoted it in his commentary. He ever tell anyone that? Phil Sammon, Ridley, everybody who watched the DVD?'


'It's not your footage, it's from Ridleys next project'

'Ok..ok...Ridley made a marketing ploy...I'm sorry. No. Really. The crazy theories that make no narrative sense are all true. You can be literal about production errors and things. Go home.'

***

'You hear a voice over, one that clarifies the story and planned in the early stages. The happy ending is crawling up your arm.'

'I'd kill it.'

***
'You've done a mans job! It's too bad a ton of people will read too much into that, and won't grasp metaphor, but then again, who does these days?'

***

 

[jaime]

^ Bryant (and later Gaff) knew and Deckard suspected it. It ties (at least for me) with Rachael's line about Rick taking that test on himself. And Deckard remaining silent. Nothing concrete of course.

The VK test tests for an empathic response. Suggesting he should take it is basically her calling him a heartless bastard for making her feel crap going through it and then again in the discussion at his flat. The scene starts with him explaining what the test is for, shows him being cold administering it, and her getting annoyed taking it. Later, after he has again smashed her identity into pieces at his flat, she questions his empathy. That in itself has an extra meaning, in so far as Deckard has shown empathy by answering her questions when no one else would. Which is why she comes back later...he is the only person to show her empathy by telling her the truth. For Deckard, she is also the first person to trigger empathy in him for a long time....he could have shot her when she was waiting by his lift (he knew she was a replicant) he didn't have to let her in to his flat and answer her questions, but he felt bad for her because 'how can it not know what it is?' She then demonstrated her empathy for him when she saved his life. Empathy and a shared communal experience of it is the key underlying thing in both versions of the story (novel and film). The 'family' of Nexus 6 demonstrate how human they actually are with it, but also demonstrate how flawed they are when they take advantage of and kill Sebastian (empathy only for their own kind, an inability to share beyond that...exactly the same flaw the human race has, with the exception of a few characters...all of whom end up dead except Deckard.) Rachael and Deckard, and in his last moments Roy, all rise above that and demonstrate true empathy between all things....Human and Replicant specifically. To be fair, Gaff is also leaning that way when he doesn't retire Rachael and acknowledges Deckards feeling for her as valid.
If Deckard is a replicant, that no longer applies, and we are back at tribal conflict and only looking after your own. The original book is actually less vague, the Andys are all actually bad, including Rachael and there's a more political thing going on. But the films replicants owe more to Dicks other story, The Electric Ant (And let's be honest....electricant to replicant is not much of a leap, but I don't think the studio had the rights to that Dick story, so we get the repeated story about phone conversations and cloning.) at least in behaviour terms and memory issues. Those were purely mechanical, while the Androids and their filmic cousins are biological constructs.

 

[jaime]

Either way it requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. Whether Deckard is human or not is irrelevant to all the other plot holes. Why does Holden give the Voight-Kampff test to Leon? They already know he is a replicant. They have his file. Why does Deckard do that fake act with Zhora and doesn't retire her immediately? He also has seen her file and knows she's a "skin-job".

It's possible that Holden didn't have the files, and that the Tyrell corporation did not provide those files until after their security was shown to be compromised. I would say that's likely given all the cooperation they then give (and get...Rachael would still be illegal, unless the top floors of the Tyrell building are designated as not being on Earth for legal reasons XD) but it's a reading between the lines of the text that is only slightly supported on screen, and there's enough of that flying about. The reality is that 'good' blade runners do things by the book...'he looked like the picture' isn't a good defence for accidentally murdering a human, even if it is something the heavily militarised future LAPD probably does and gets away with (hence the little people threat, and another piece of social commentary in the film.)
Zhora in particular never looks the same twice, (inception files, Leon's VR photos, Deckards print out, as a performer, on the street....I don't think the stunt man was part of that mind you.) and if the photos were a concrete means of ID, the first thing they would do is change their appearance. It also implies that they may be based on actual humans in some direct ways (you don't want to off their genetic donors by mistake...DNA evidence would also be useless in that regard, they may be a cocktail of different markers depending on which bit you get the sample from.) which is hinted at by having chew manufacture and design their eyes, and Sebastian's 'there's some of me in you' being darkly literal...his aging condition is likely what slaps the best before end date of the replicants arses, and that's before you consider the more positive fact that he likely uses bits of himself in their design in the way an artist would. 'These are my friends, I make them.' (And his friends are likely illegal replicants hidden as toys remember....and remember the female body in the bath upstairs in his building too...)

 

[Captain of the USS Averof]

The VK test tests for an empathic response. Suggesting he should take it is basically her calling him a heartless bastard for making her feel crap going through it and then again in the discussion at his flat. The scene starts with him explaining what the test is for, shows him being cold administering it, and her getting annoyed taking it. Later, after he has again smashed her identity into pieces at his flat, she questions his empathy. That in itself has an extra meaning, in so far as Deckard has shown empathy by answering her questions when no one else would. Which is why she comes back later...he is the only person to show her empathy by telling her the truth. For Deckard, she is also the first person to trigger empathy in him for a long time....he could have shot her when she was waiting by his lift (he knew she was a replicant) he didn't have to let her in to his flat and answer her questions, but he felt bad for her because 'how can it not know what it is?' She then demonstrated her empathy for him when she saved his life.

I really like your passionate answer but nothing of the short is said, implied or even vaguely hinted in the specific scene. Remember, this takes place after Rachael has shot and killed Leon. This is their exact exchange:

[Back at Deckard apartment]
Deckard: Shakes? Me too. I get 'em bad. It's part of the business.
Rachael: I'm not in the business. I am the business.
[Deckard gurgles blood.]
Rachael: What if I go north. Disappear. Would you come after me? Hunt
me?
Deckard: No. No, I wouldn't. I owe you one. But somebody would.
Rachael: Deckard? You know those files on me? The incept dates, the
longevity, those things. You saw them?
Deckard: They're classified.
Rachael: But you're a policeman.
Deckard: I didn't look at them.
Rachael: You know that Voight-Kampf test of yours? Did you ever take
that test yourself? Deckard?
[Deckard falls asleep while Rachael dis-hairs and plays the piano.]

 

[jaime]

I really like your passionate answer but nothing of the short is said, implied or even vaguely hinted in the specific scene. Remember, this takes place after Rachael has shot and killed Leon. This is their exact exchange:

[Back at Deckard apartment]
Deckard: Shakes? Me too. I get 'em bad. It's part of the business.
Rachael: I'm not in the business. I am the business.
[Deckard gurgles blood.]
Rachael: What if I go north. Disappear. Would you come after me? Hunt
me?
Deckard: No. No, I wouldn't. I owe you one. But somebody would.
Rachael: Deckard? You know those files on me? The incept dates, the
longevity, those things. You saw them?
Deckard: They're classified.
Rachael: But you're a policeman.
Deckard: I didn't look at them.
Rachael: You know that Voight-Kampf test of yours? Did you ever take
that test yourself? Deckard?
[Deckard falls asleep while Rachael dis-hairs and plays the piano.]

Straight after he answers the awkward question awkwardly, and showing empathy. I didn't say it was straight after. XD in fact it his straight after he outright verbalises empathy 'I owe you one' albeit cheap barter empathy. The way that's presented, especially with the offer of the drink etc, shows that he's hiding behind that street empathy...how do you owe a machine one? Unless he's acknowledging that she isn't that. It's an attack on his tough guy image, for his cold act towards her, while she is basically asking him how he feels about her...it's a noir film, she's the femme fatale and the plucky heroine princess all in one.

 

[Nightowl1701]

For whatever it's worth, the Marvel comic adaptation by Archie Goodwin had the line as: "I didn't look at them. I didn't want to."

 

[jaime]

For whatever it's worth, the Marvel comic adaptation by Archie Goodwin had the line as: "I didn't look at them. I didn't want to."

Which is pretty much how he says it on screen, even if it's not what he's saying. The 'They're classified' is faced straight away by her basically saying she knows that's BS. The happy ending gives him another reason to being evasive....he knows she theoretically doesn't have an expiration date, and isn't quite sure what that makes her just yet (human, basically.) He doesn't really process that until after the music scene. Either way he isn't treating her as his job requires, nor as Tyrell would require ( he's already told her what they won't, he's basically hiding her from them...and she logically has some value as a prototype. There's a whole lot for him to figure out what he should be doing, whilst still also having to finish his job...it's similar to the book in that respect at least. I wish they had kept the longer Love Scene in, and toned down some of Ridleys odd tendencies in editing at least. It barely avoids being assault in the version shown...you have to pay ridiculous attention to nuance while the music is going potty, and think about way too much in what should be a way simpler scene pivotal as it is.) and has at this point already started the final stage of his character change (it started before the film, he was already sick of the job.). Zhora was the last relatively innocent replicant he kills in so,ethimg approaching cold blood....Pris is self defence, and she's an accessory to Sebastian's Murder, Roy has killed three people by this point, and Leon attempted to kill Holden and wasn't killed by Deckard. At this point, he can assume that he or Rachael can also be targets, and if Roy knows about Rachael after breaking into Tyrell's apartment (let's not forget Tyrell is lying to him about expiry dates in the theatrical version...Rachael is already out there proving that.) then he may seek her out as she basically holds his 'cure'. This is all aside from the fact he needs the police off his back if he's going to get away, and they already know he is not exactly pro retiring Rachael.
This also explains why Roy knows Deckards name in the final sequence.

 

[Nightowl1701]

Zhora was the last relatively innocent replicant he kills in something approaching cold blood....

"Relatively innocent" is a good way to put it. Remember the shuttle Batty & Co. hijacked to get to Earth? Twenty-three dead, Bryant said - crew and passengers. I think it's safe to assume Zhora racked up quite a few of those kills.

 

[jaime]

"Relatively innocent" is a good way to put it. Remember the shuttle Batty & Co. hijacked to get to Earth? Twenty-three dead, Bryant said - crew and passengers. I think it's safe to assume Zhora racked up quite a few of those kills.

Yup. Relatively in that 'well...we don't actually see her kill anyone, and they were running sort of for their lives...ish...by going to the one place they have an automatic death sentence...but...'
As opposed to Roy killing 'innocents' who actually behaved somewhat friendly towards them (and torturing Chew). It's relative. You have to wonder why Zhora was even dancing in the first place...is she the breadwinner? They don't pay rent...don't appear to eat...Leon's job was for access to Tyrell corp...Zhora just like dancing and snakes I guess. Set herself up pretty fast too.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Might be a good year to watch my DVD box set of Total Recall 2070, too. It was theoretically based on Total Recall, and it did have some elements from the story, but it also borrowed a lot from Blade Runner. Started out as a horribly derivative bad idea for the duration of the introductory movie, but steadily improved to the point where I was really disappointed it never got a second season.

I checked prices on a boxed set of Total Recall 2070 and... Yowch! That's a pricey one.