I see after a spate of refusing to cut their movies to appease bigoted middle-east regimes Disney have got the scissors back out and sliced up Wakanda Forever for them. I guess money does trump everything else in the end.
Spoilers Black Panther Wakanda Forever
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
- Start date
Just got back from watching it and there were many tears! 
Much like its predecessor, Wakanda Forever is truly a revelation, full of joy, sorrow, surprises, and yes, very much needed catharsis. But make no mistake, this isn't simply Black Panther 2, rather the film's storytelling and even Ryan Coogler's stylistic choices stand on their own and separate from what came before it.
There were a lot of moving parts in this film, more so than the first, and most of them worked really well. I especially loved how Talokan was introduced as its own unique culture and a worthy rival for Wakanda, not just in resources and technology, but also in resentment against colonizers. Namor's new history and heritage works very nicely within the confines of the MCU while staying true to his nature (if far less arrogant and angry, which I'm fine with)...and yes, he expressly refers to himself as a mutant (although perhaps not, in his mind, in the classic Marvel manner).
There are a lot of great character arcs weaved throughout but none stronger than Shuri's. I loved how the film took its time in dealing with her self-isolation, grief, loss of control, and sense of failure, while struggling with her inner demons and feeling the need for vengeance. One of the film's biggest surprises (even if it was one I had hoped for in some manner) was Shuri meeting Killmonger in the ancestral plane instead of her mother as she anticipated, which only fueled her fury right until the very last moment to hold back. I loved how her sowing for peace with Namor echoed T'Challa's own decision to show mercy to Zemo.
Riri, Ramonda, Nikia, Okoye, Aneka, and even Agent Ross (featuring special guest star Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, what??!?) all had great character arcs, too, although I felt that Okoye was a bit short-changed after she was striped of her command and titles. That said though...
I didn't realize it until the outfit's final form and mere moments before Shuri said their name, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the Midnight Angels show up in this film (albeit in a minor role), something I didn't think would happen anytime soon despite Aneka's inclusion. If I recall correctly, it was only Aneka and Ayo who were Midnight Angels but the change to Okoye makes sense within the confines of this story, especially since Ayo is now the new Dora Milaje general it seems. At least the film retained the romantic relationship between Aneka and Ayo, although it was disappointing that it was again another blink-and-you-miss-it moment. I'm hoping that Ryan Coogler's upcoming Wakanda series is about the Midnight Angels and we'll get to see that relationship properly.
Lastly, I have to reflect on the many beautiful ways this film paid tribute to Chadwick Boseman. From the prologue focused on T'Challa's natural death (and I'm very glad they left it vague beyond Shuri's struggles to cure him) and the quiet Marvel logo filled with his scenes (I didn't think to look closely, but I don't think I saw anything from What If...? which is a shame) to how T'Challa's memory stayed Shuri's hand at the right moment. But above all else, that mid-credits scene was breathtaking. Far longer than any previous mid- or post-credits scene, those moments between Shuri, Nakia, and Toussaint/T'Challa II were so cathartic, touching and loving and I definitely cried more then than any other moment.
I cannot wait to see more adventures of Wakanda and Talokan!
Much like its predecessor, Wakanda Forever is truly a revelation, full of joy, sorrow, surprises, and yes, very much needed catharsis. But make no mistake, this isn't simply Black Panther 2, rather the film's storytelling and even Ryan Coogler's stylistic choices stand on their own and separate from what came before it.
There were a lot of moving parts in this film, more so than the first, and most of them worked really well. I especially loved how Talokan was introduced as its own unique culture and a worthy rival for Wakanda, not just in resources and technology, but also in resentment against colonizers. Namor's new history and heritage works very nicely within the confines of the MCU while staying true to his nature (if far less arrogant and angry, which I'm fine with)...and yes, he expressly refers to himself as a mutant (although perhaps not, in his mind, in the classic Marvel manner).
There are a lot of great character arcs weaved throughout but none stronger than Shuri's. I loved how the film took its time in dealing with her self-isolation, grief, loss of control, and sense of failure, while struggling with her inner demons and feeling the need for vengeance. One of the film's biggest surprises (even if it was one I had hoped for in some manner) was Shuri meeting Killmonger in the ancestral plane instead of her mother as she anticipated, which only fueled her fury right until the very last moment to hold back. I loved how her sowing for peace with Namor echoed T'Challa's own decision to show mercy to Zemo.
Riri, Ramonda, Nikia, Okoye, Aneka, and even Agent Ross (featuring special guest star Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, what??!?) all had great character arcs, too, although I felt that Okoye was a bit short-changed after she was striped of her command and titles. That said though...
I didn't realize it until the outfit's final form and mere moments before Shuri said their name, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the Midnight Angels show up in this film (albeit in a minor role), something I didn't think would happen anytime soon despite Aneka's inclusion. If I recall correctly, it was only Aneka and Ayo who were Midnight Angels but the change to Okoye makes sense within the confines of this story, especially since Ayo is now the new Dora Milaje general it seems. At least the film retained the romantic relationship between Aneka and Ayo, although it was disappointing that it was again another blink-and-you-miss-it moment. I'm hoping that Ryan Coogler's upcoming Wakanda series is about the Midnight Angels and we'll get to see that relationship properly.
Lastly, I have to reflect on the many beautiful ways this film paid tribute to Chadwick Boseman. From the prologue focused on T'Challa's natural death (and I'm very glad they left it vague beyond Shuri's struggles to cure him) and the quiet Marvel logo filled with his scenes (I didn't think to look closely, but I don't think I saw anything from What If...? which is a shame) to how T'Challa's memory stayed Shuri's hand at the right moment. But above all else, that mid-credits scene was breathtaking. Far longer than any previous mid- or post-credits scene, those moments between Shuri, Nakia, and Toussaint/T'Challa II were so cathartic, touching and loving and I definitely cried more then than any other moment.
I cannot wait to see more adventures of Wakanda and Talokan!
Just got back from watching it and there were many tears!
Much like its predecessor, Wakanda Forever is truly a revelation, full of joy, sorrow, surprises, and yes, very much needed catharsis. But make no mistake, this isn't simply Black Panther 2, rather the film's storytelling and even Ryan Coogler's stylistic choices stand on their own and separate from what came before it.
There were a lot of moving parts in this film, more so than the first, and most of them worked really well. I especially loved how Talokan was introduced as its own unique culture and a worthy rival for Wakanda, not just in resources and technology, but also in resentment against colonizers. Namor's new history and heritage works very nicely within the confines of the MCU while staying true to his nature (if far less arrogant and angry, which I'm fine with)...and yes, he expressly refers to himself as a mutant (although perhaps not, in his mind, in the classic Marvel manner).
There are a lot of great character arcs weaved throughout but none stronger than Shuri's. I loved how the film took its time in dealing with her self-isolation, grief, loss of control, and sense of failure, while struggling with her inner demons and feeling the need for vengeance. One of the film's biggest surprises (even if it was one I had hoped for in some manner) was Shuri meeting Killmonger in the ancestral plane instead of her mother as she anticipated, which only fueled her fury right until the very last moment to hold back. I loved how her sowing for peace with Namor echoed T'Challa's own decision to show mercy to Zemo.
Riri, Ramonda, Nikia, Okoye, Aneka, and even Agent Ross (featuring special guest star Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, what??!?) all had great character arcs, too, although I felt that Okoye was a bit short-changed after she was striped of her command and titles. That said though...
I didn't realize it until the outfit's final form and mere moments before Shuri said their name, but I was pleasantly surprised to see the Midnight Angels show up in this film (albeit in a minor role), something I didn't think would happen anytime soon despite Aneka's inclusion. If I recall correctly, it was only Aneka and Ayo who were Midnight Angels but the change to Okoye makes sense within the confines of this story, especially since Ayo is now the new Dora Milaje general it seems. At least the film retained the romantic relationship between Aneka and Ayo, although it was disappointing that it was again another blink-and-you-miss-it moment. I'm hoping that Ryan Coogler's upcoming Wakanda series is about the Midnight Angels and we'll get to see that relationship properly.
Lastly, I have to reflect on the many beautiful ways this film paid tribute to Chadwick Boseman. From the prologue focused on T'Challa's natural death (and I'm very glad they left it vague beyond Shuri's struggles to cure him) and the quiet Marvel logo filled with his scenes (I didn't think to look closely, but I don't think I saw anything from What If...? which is a shame) to how T'Challa's memory stayed Shuri's hand at the right moment. But above all else, that mid-credits scene was breathtaking. Far longer than any previous mid- or post-credits scene, those moments between Shuri, Nakia, and Toussaint/T'Challa II were so cathartic, touching and loving and I definitely cried more then than any other moment.
I cannot wait to see more adventures of Wakanda and Talokan!
Agree with everything you said. Saw this earlier today and I have to say that this is EASILY one Marvel Studios best ever films, as well as a strong contender for my favorite Marvel Studios film.
It had things no Marvel Studios film has had after 30 films or so: an actual sense of tension over the fates of characters, especially after, well those who’ve seen the film will know.
It also had, bar none, the single most powerful scene from all their films and that is when the Queen is dressing down the general for her failure and when she raise’s her voice at the climax of that scene, I was in fucking awe of the delivery and emotion of that moment. Everyone was. If there’s a scene with that level of emotion and power in another superhero film, it’s not coming to me in this moment.
The other things that impressed me with this film is that the bad guy wasn’t a snarky quipster and even more impressive is how little there was of snark and quips from anyone.
Most impressive of all is they finally did something unique for a Marvel Studios film:
they let the audience be sad.
There was so many moving moments in this film, especially those dealing with T’Challa, the loving tributes to Boseman and T’Challa’s
mother and Shuri dealing with their grief. Not just in one part of the film, but the entire film. I’m not gonna lie, I teared up several times watching, from the opening, to the loss of a prominent character, to Shuri remembering T’Challa at the end / mid credits scene. I get that Marvel Studios is overly jokey because they want people coming out of the theater with smiles, but a sad film can be every bit as enjoyable and I’m glad the director understood this. Even with the bit of hope at the end, it didn’t just brush away Shuri’s grief for a saccharine ending. It had just the right amount of upbeat mixed with grief.
I’ve been bored with Marvel Studios films since before Infinity War and Endgame because they were in cookie cutter territory for me, but this film? If I had to score it from 1-10, I’d give it an 11.
Was also pretty pleased with Namor, though I wish he was clean shaven. The underwater feathers seemed odd, but I get the culture they were drawing from. Also glad they didn’t keep pronouncing his name as “nuhMOR” instead of “NAYmor”.
Only two quibbles was the quick wrap up at the end after the big battle. But considering the Shuri scenes after it, that’s alright. And when Namor finally says “Imperious Rex”.
Was just an odd an underwhelming moment for that. Like they had to include it because it’s his trademark saying. Would’ve worked when they were attacking the Wakandans.
Anyway, great film, loved it.
IIRC, this version of the Marvel logo was originally done in 2020 for a TV broadcast of the first Black Panther shortly after Boesman's death, so there wouldn't have been What If footage available at the time.
I guess they could have done a new version to incorporate What If, but maybe they liked what they did in 2020 so much they didn't want to mess with perfection?
I doubt this will be allowed in China. There are some homosexuals in it.
I doesn’t matter anyway since the first Black Panther was one of those weird movies that made more domestically than international.
I really wish they recasted T'Challa. Instead of killing him off with an unknown and unnamed disease. Nearly 3 years into a worldwide pandemic and Chadwick's own death due to cancer. And no one at Disney thought killing off a fan-favorite and beloved character in the opening of a blockbuster movie with a disease; mirroring real life events was a bad idea?! Optics alone make it look insanely insensitive.
Here’s an idea. Why not set the movie during the Blip. You have an excuse to do the “death of the king” story. T’Challa’s absence and genuine death can be explained and mourned. Then he returns (or rather the man in the suit/CGI suit) returns when the snap is undone.
Hell, I would have accepted T'Challa dying in a heroic death in the opening of the movie against Namor. A misunderstanding or deliberate attack on the surface world that sets Wakanda against Namor the Talokans. T'Challa dies trying to save lives of civilians but is unable to save himself. Like a true hero.
Or because this is a comic book movie, do the accelerated aging angle. The character is still alive but you have a different actor playing him. People would buy the accelerated aging factor for a recast. Say Namor has access to the Fountain of Youth/Elixir of Life and isn't willing to share. Since the Fountain of Youth was a genuine thing the Conquistadors (namely Ponce De Leon) was looking for.
Idk. Wakanda Forever was just the worst of all worlds for me. Felt exploitative.
Here’s an idea. Why not set the movie during the Blip. You have an excuse to do the “death of the king” story. T’Challa’s absence and genuine death can be explained and mourned. Then he returns (or rather the man in the suit/CGI suit) returns when the snap is undone.
Hell, I would have accepted T'Challa dying in a heroic death in the opening of the movie against Namor. A misunderstanding or deliberate attack on the surface world that sets Wakanda against Namor the Talokans. T'Challa dies trying to save lives of civilians but is unable to save himself. Like a true hero.
Or because this is a comic book movie, do the accelerated aging angle. The character is still alive but you have a different actor playing him. People would buy the accelerated aging factor for a recast. Say Namor has access to the Fountain of Youth/Elixir of Life and isn't willing to share. Since the Fountain of Youth was a genuine thing the Conquistadors (namely Ponce De Leon) was looking for.
Idk. Wakanda Forever was just the worst of all worlds for me. Felt exploitative.
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Recasting T'Challa would not have worked at all. Even if they did find the perfect actor to fill Boseman's shoes, there's no way Boseman's death would not have cast a shadow over this movie. Even though we could probably rely on the rest of the cast to be professional and welcoming to this hypothetical new actor, their feelings for Boseman would permeate the atmosphere for this movie regardless. Best to incorporate that and have it in the open, have the characters mourning the loss of T'Challa the same way the actors are mourning the loss of Boseman.
Now, I agree, I would not have made T'Challa's death parallel Boseman's death as closely as it did. I probably would have had him die a hero's death while saving lives as you suggested. But then, I wasn't involved in the writing or production of this movie. I can only trust that discussions were had on how to kill T'Challa off were had and for whatever reason, what we got was considered the best of all options. At the very least, starting the movie with Shuri frantically trying to come up with a cure only to receive the news of T'Challa's death is an effective way to kill him off without needing Boseman or a double onscreen and it serves Shuri's character arc in the movie, so I can see why this decision was made.
Regardless, someone would have been upset regardless which approach was done. That's unfortunately unavoidable.
For anyone who has seen it, I just really want to know (you can put it in spoilers if you feel like it):
1. How much of the movie is devoted to Shuri?
2. Does she become permanent Black Panther (or one of several, if some peoples theories end up being correct) at the end of the film?
I won't make a big post about it, but my general feelings toward Letita Wright can be summed up as "Fuck that dangerous nutjob", and as much as I enjoyed the first BP (and want to see Namor), the movie will be strictly "Watch when its on Disney Plus" for me if she's THE main character or if she's going to be Black Panther going forward. But, I can't find any answers to these questions even in reviews that care less about spoilers. To be fair its basically still day one and I'm sure more overall spoiler coverage will come out, but I'm just curious if anyone has any answers right now.
1. How much of the movie is devoted to Shuri?
2. Does she become permanent Black Panther (or one of several, if some peoples theories end up being correct) at the end of the film?
I won't make a big post about it, but my general feelings toward Letita Wright can be summed up as "Fuck that dangerous nutjob", and as much as I enjoyed the first BP (and want to see Namor), the movie will be strictly "Watch when its on Disney Plus" for me if she's THE main character or if she's going to be Black Panther going forward. But, I can't find any answers to these questions even in reviews that care less about spoilers. To be fair its basically still day one and I'm sure more overall spoiler coverage will come out, but I'm just curious if anyone has any answers right now.
1. About 70-75%
2. She becomes a Panther but they planted the seeds that others might become one down the line. She does not become Queen of Wakanda however.
She's the lead character
Yes.
I am aware of her, shall we say, controversial political beliefs. But in spite of her real world faults, she is a decent actress and I was able to separate character and actress and not once was I thinking of the fact Wright is not someone I agree with at all while watching Shuri in this movie.
I was surprised they stuck to their guns and kept Namor as the central antagonist, I thought they were going to pull a predictable thing with Attuma backstabbing him and Namor having to team up with the Wakandans to stop him.
And some worldbuilding, with Valentina revealed as the CIA Director.
And some worldbuilding, with Valentina revealed as the CIA Director.
I enjoyed the movie. I thought they handled the death of T'Challa well. I really liked the depiction of Namor.
Same. I just KNEW they were gonna do that and then…..they didn’t. Also, his final words to Namora about how the surface world will eventually attack Wakanda and Wakanda will need them, kept him as the shrewd and calculating character he is.
Yeah, I did think back to the 2020 version so you might be right about that. I just figured they might have wanted to include What If...? considering how much Chadwick enjoyed the experience.
Thanks for the answers. I can sometimes separate the character and the actor in cases of the actor being an asshole, but I legitimately consider Anti-Vax people dangerous, people literally died needlessly because of the bullshit they spout, which to me crosses a line. I'm not going to judge anyone who would still want to pay to see BP2, Quantumania, etc, but I can't in good conscious ever give Disney any direct financial support for this movie.
If she had a reduced role and ended the film being written out or really de-emphasized I could justify supporting the movie, I realize I'd probably have to skip a lot of movies if I just never watched stuff that employed assholes, but in this case Disney doubling down on her is a step too far. I'll watch the film whenever it arrives on Disney+, but I just personally can't justify paying to see the film if thats the way they're going. Its not a statement on the quality of the movie, I'm sure I'll end up enjoying it when I see it, but its just a thing I can't get past.
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