Spoilers Black Lightning - Season 1

[dahj]

but I do feel she could afford to give a little ground at this point

Give what ground? At what point have I argued against anything he said?
I've only argued my point, and I think I've made it pretty clear it's just one aspect of the issue.
I'm not the one arguing here that there's only one aspect.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

But the way you abd Christopher talk about it, it seems like toxic masculinity is what is driving Khalil, when you are misdiagnosing the problem, and of ignoring the evidence (or at least downplaying it significantly) the show has established about Khalil

Well, one cannot speak to something they refuse to acknowledge and/or understand (even in the face of hard, unavoidable evidence in the series). It makes forcing Khalil into a completely undeserved category easy.

 

[The Realist]

Give what ground? At what point have I argued against anything he said?
I've only argued my point, and I think I've made it pretty clear it's just one aspect of the issue.
I'm not the one arguing here that there's only one aspect.

No offense, I hope. I guess I was just suggesting that in your zeal to argue your position, you may have neglected to acknowledge TREK_GOD_1's perspectives. Rao knows I've had my own disagreements with him (see: basically everything that comes out of his mouth about Supergirl), but he's offered some useful points here.

(And I just caught your subtle "she" edit. Apologies for the gender misassignment. Also, that's another fine choice of av.)

 

[Morpheus 02]

Give what ground? At what point have I argued against anything he said?
I've only argued my point, and I think I've made it pretty clear it's just one aspect of the issue.
I'm not the one arguing here that there's only one aspect.

By IGNORING the other aspects ...that ia the problem. Sort of like how some people would say apathy toward someone is worse than hate.

Please see my above example of diagnosing a cough

 

[dahj]

I was just suggesting that in your zeal to argue your position, you may have neglected to acknowledge TREK_GOD_1's perspectives

I do agree with a bunch of things he said, but I'm not in the habit of acknowledging posts that are framed so dismissive, condescending and patronizing(and in this case even insulting) with anything but snark. Especially when they're written as arguments against points I never made.

And I just caught your subtle "she" edit. Apologies for the gender misassignment.

No worries, not bothered by it, I don't even edit it half the time it happens.

Please see my above example of diagnosing a cough

Please see my response to your previous posts.

 

[The Realist]

I do agree with a bunch of things he said, but I'm not in the habit of acknowledging posts that are framed so dismissive, condescending and patronizing(and in this case even insulting) with anything but snark. Especially when they're written as arguments against points I never made.

Fair point about tone.

No worries, not bothered by it, I don't even edit it half the time it happens.

Well, hey, at least you know nothing I said in my presumptuous attempt to mediate was based on sexist bias.

 

[Spot261]

Such anger, it leads to the dark side.....

hey @dodge, what do they call it when females come to be the targets for frustrated emasculated males?

 

[dahj]

hey @dodge, what do they call it when females come to be the targets for frustrated emasculated males?

Tuesday.

 

[Spot261]

Tuesday.

Ah, that's it....I thought there was a dark irony inherent in the exchange above....

So, @TREK_GOD_1, any case for why the concept of toxic masculinity can't apply here entirely in conjunction with the narrative of the black male?

 

[Morpheus 02]

I do agree that the main takeaway is what pushes kids to crime, but I also don't think it's just incidental, considering this is a show that in the very first episode had Lala's cousin treat Jen like he owned her five minutes after they met, even tried to pimp her out, and had Anissa beat the shit out of a bunch of anti-lesbian assholes. The show has called attention to it before.

(On an unrelated note, bring back Grace already!)

THOSE are examples of toxic masculinity...switch the genders on the offenders and it wouldn't be the same.

Change Khalils gender and the story would pretty much be the same

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Ah, that's it....I thought there was a dark irony inherent in the exchange above....

So, @TREK_GOD_1, any case for why the concept of toxic masculinity can't apply here entirely in conjunction with the narrative of the black male?

Because the struggles of black males with self-determination in association with overcoming odds / barriers (that stand as a most unwanted heirloom of a kind) and to either fail because of--or move past the empty and/or broken promises from the do-gooders selling the "you can make it" community script is not rooted in anything remotely connected to toxic masculinity. All of the motivators I've mentioned time and again coalesce into a condition undeniably tied to the overall multigenerational black identity, not the isolated sub-category of masculinity as incorrectly labeled/judged by too many modern social commentators. That is the all-important difference: the black identity experience cannot / should not be subjected to some aggressive need to hurl any male and/or male behavior into a negative category.

 

[Spot261]

Because the struggles of black males with self-determination in association with overcoming odds / barriers (that stand as a most unwanted heirloom of a kind) and to either fail because of--or move past the empty and/or broken promises from the do-gooders selling the "you can make it" community script is not rooted in anything remotely connected to toxic masculinity. All of the motivators I've mentioned time and again coalesce into a condition undeniably tied to the overall multigenerational black identity, not the isolated sub-category of masculinity as incorrectly labeled/judged by too many modern social commentators. That is the all-important difference: the black identity experience cannot / should not be subjected to some aggressive need to hurl any male and/or male behavior into a negative category.

Nothing in this post negates the possibility of a dual interpretation, nor does it negate the possibility of selectively interpreting the evidence on a case by case basis.

Again, why can't both narratives work in tandem?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I addition to the first response, there is no evidence from the series supporting the idea of toxic masculinity (and it has not been backed up by series evidence by those pushing it) The only evidence to be found only points in the direction of the black identity issues covered here.

 

[Spot261]

What evidence would you need?

Clearly there are those posting in this thread who feel that evidence is there and can offer examples.

Your argument essentially boils down to "because I say so"

 

[Morpheus 02]

What evidence would you need?

Clearly there are those posting in this thread who feel that evidence is there and can offer examples.

Your argument essentially boils down to "because I say so"

Would you mind looking at my responses? Are you sure this "cough" is Ebola as opposed to a cold or asthma?

Khalil s issues could easily be transferred to a female character. Dodge have 2 examples that I think even Trek God would agree are toxic masculinity.

And again, I would challenge you that if you arw white, even if you seem yourself "progressive", that you still need to listen to another's insight.

 

[Spot261]

Would you mind looking at my responses? Are you sure this "cough" is Ebola as opposed to a cold or asthma?

Khalil s issues could easily be transferred to a female character. Dodge have 2 examples that I think even Trek God would agree are toxic masculinity.

And again, I would challenge you that if you arw white, even if you seem yourself "progressive", that you still need to listen to another's insight.

But this isn't a medical diagnosis with an objective, binary outcome which can be achieved via the scientific method. We are talking about how people interpret a subjective medium based in no small part on their own experiences. I haven't offered an interpretation of my own, on the contrary I've done exactly what you claim I'm not doing and listened.

Societal issues in reality do not exist in isolation, they are intertwined and inseperable. By extension people's interpretations of a piece of art need to be considered in that light. Accepting a racial narrative within a show need not mean excluding the perspective of a female or her insights into male behaviour. Just the opposite in fact.

Respecting one insight does not make another any less valid, on the contrary by widening one's conceptual net one gains a richer appreciation of how art may be seen to reflect or comment on a reality which has as many different meanings as it has observers. Hearing the views of a black man (which I'm hypothesising you are) does not mean ignoring those of a female (which I know @dodge is). We can learn from both without seeing the need for mutual exclusivity, much as we can and should accept the issues affecting both co exist in reality.

This is the point I am throwing out to Trek God, his assessment is absolute and closed, it insists on an objectivity which is final and uncompromising in a way which would be mistaken even in a hard science, much less a subjective and interpretive process like this. "I see no evidence" becomes "There is no evidence" combined with "My perspective is the only possible valid one". That is unhelpful and misses the point, not to mention how the anger seething right below the surface of his posts without irony are almost a perfect illustration of the very thing he is seemingly calling into doubt.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

u arw white, even if you seem yourself "progressive", that you still need to listen to another's insight.

But that is the problem: innumerable white liberals' default position is that "I have judged it, therefore it is" despite having no personal, reasoned insight into whatever they're talking about, as seen in the quote (below) I will respond to, and the inapplicable psychobabble employed by dodge and another member. Again, toxic masculinity is the agenda du jour for those seeking to target any male behavior as negative in their politically myopic world.

Regarding Spot261, that member insists on arguing:

Societal issues in reality do not exist in isolation, they are intertwined and inseperable. By extension people's interpretations of a piece of art need to be considered in that light. Accepting a racial narrative within a show need not mean excluding the perspective of a female or her insights into male behaviour. Just the opposite in fact.

...which is nonsensical at best in this case. All situations are not equally open to several interpretations, demonstrated earlier, and in--

Morpheus 02, as you pointed out, Black Lightning is accessible to any viewer, but its creators are addressing issues so unique to the black community/identity/experience (arguably as an informative session for those who are not black and/or did not grow up in those environments), which are not born of whatever creates certain social issues in others. If dodge is a white female, then she is still white, and that already places her in a position/viewpoint of exclusivity in the dominant class/race--with white males--which has no foundational association or understanding of the situation / experiences of black males. That's why I referred to dodge's charge of toxic masculinity as offensive, as she--as is the order of the day for some white liberals--are determined to force that aforementioned agenda on everyone no matter the undeniable experiences which do separate motivators for behavior. If you notice, dodge's original judgment of Khalil (in responding to Christopher) was only--

The show is pretty uncompromising in highlighting not just issues of the black community, but all kinds of issues that plague society today, so it shouldn't really be surprising in the current climate that one of those things is just how damaging toxic masculinity is.

Where is this evidence for that judgement specific to the black male experience? An assumption that the judgment covers all males, no matter the origin point or unique experience / development? Christopher referring to Khalil as a jerk? Its not in the actual episode, but the opposite is in plain dialogue. Dodge created her judgement based on a "current climate" informing her way of viewing & labeling males, even when there's no justification for doing so. "Current climate one of those things is just how damaging toxic masculinity is...." is such a politically loaded, broad, fact-free concept, that it in no way speaks to the specific issues of any character on Black Lightning--not just Khalil. The irony is that this kind of aggressive charge (toxic masculinity) is just as sweeping and offensive to black identity/experience as Republican Paul Ryan's idiotic "tailspin of culture" condemnation of "inner city" people (code for black people) in reference to desire to work / poverty. The point is that it is as sweeping, and free of even a grain of experience / insight to know anything about one--or all of a group of people, and both judgements come from white individuals with feet firmly planted in ideology far removed from the reality of the people they are criticizing.

Finally, even if/when a black male expresses any feelings tied to a male personality, goal or desire, it--like all other elements covered here--are not tied to the white liberal's (politicized)idea of masculinity at all, nor can it be stereotyped as such, since the root--the foundational motives are as distinct from the male behavior of other groups as one fingerprint from another, based on aforementioned differences back males face (covered time and again in this thread) right out of the cradle.

It would help matters of race to a great degree if those from the dominant class/race would--at least--try to learn from those actually living that unique experience to gain some---even a bit of understanding, instead of posting the kind of insulting things seen in this thread.

 

[Spot261]

But that is the problem: innumerable white liberals' default position is that "I have judged it, therefore it is" despite having no personal, reasoned insight into whatever they're talking about, as seen in the quote (below) I will respond to, and the inapplicable psychobabble employed by dodge and another member. Again, toxic masculinity is the agenda du jour for those seeking to target any male behavior as negative in their politically myopic world.

Regarding Spot261, that member insists on arguing:



...which is nonsensical at best in this case. All situations are not equally open to several interpretations, demonstrated earlier, and in--

Morpheus 02, as you pointed out, Black Lightning is accessible to any viewer, but its creators are addressing issues so unique to the black community/identity/experience (arguably as an informative session for those who are not black and/or did not grow up in those environments), which are not born of whatever creates certain social issues in others. If dodge is a white female, then she is still white, and that already places her in a position/viewpoint of exclusivity in the dominant class/race--with white males--which has no foundational association or understanding of the situation / experiences of black males. That's why I referred to dodge's charge of toxic masculinity as offensive, as she--as is the order of the day for some white liberals--are determined to force that aforementioned agenda on everyone no matter the undeniable experiences which do separate motivators for behavior. If you notice, dodge's original judgment of Khalil (in responding to Christopher) was only--



Where is this evidence for that judgement? Christopher referring to Khalil as a jerk? Its not in the actual episode, but the opposite is in plain dialogue. Dodge created her judgement based on a "current climate" informing her way of viewing & labeling males, even when there's no justification for doing so. "Current climate" is such a politically loaded, broad, fact-free concept, that it in no way speaks to the specific issues of any character on Black Lightning--not just Khalil. The irony is that this kind of aggressive charge (toxic masculinity) is just as sweeping and offensive to black identity/experience as Republican Paul Ryan's idiotic "tailspin of culture" condemnation of "inner city" people (code for black people) in reference to desire to work / poverty. The point is that it is as sweeping, and free of even a grain of experience / insight to know anything about one--or all of a group of people, and both judgements come from white individuals with feet firmly planted in ideology far removed from the reality of the people they are criticizing.

Finally, even if/when a black male expresses any feelings tied to a male personality, goal or desire, it--like all other elements covered here--are not tied to the white liberal's (politicized)idea of masculinity at all, nor can it be stereotyped as such, since the root--the foundational motives are as distinct from the male behavior of other groups as one fingerprint from another, based on aforementioned differences back males face (covered time and again in this thread) right out of the cradle.

It would help matters of race to a great degree if those from the dominant class/race would--at least--try to learn from those actually living that unique experience to gain some---even a bit of understanding, instead of posting the kind of insulting things seen in this thread.

And yet no one has denied there are racial issues at play or being portrayed, on the contrary it is only you acting as though anyone has made such a claim. Attempted to imply there is inherent racism in pursuing or considering any line of analysis other than a single narrative is disingenuous and frankly comes across as deliberately cynical.

You still have presented no reason at all why those acknowledged racial issues preclude other aspects of the human condition, nor have you explained what you mean by "foundational motives".

There are cultural drivers at play but all the evidence is strongly against there being underlying racial variance in social cognitive processes. Toxic masculinity is not specific to any given race, nor is it a liberal construct, on the contrary it is a very effective term for a variety of aspects of male behaviour which are well established to be pan cultural. Indeed there is a plethora of evidence for their expression across many hominid species in much the same forms we see throughout humanity. Those behaviours had and have been examined objectively long before and outside of the current wave of partisan politics you seek to blame.

Far from being "as different as fingerprints" those patterns are well documented as being evident throughout pretty much all societies and actually don't correlate with race at all. The values placed on those behaviours vary widely between cultures but there is essentially no evidence that sexual violence or misogyny have a racial basis.

Therefore the onus is on you to provide a case for why toxic masculinity is an invalid construct to apply here and make that argument consist of more than a glorified "because I say so".

 

[dahj]

So anyway... there's one thing we can all agree upon, and that's that this has been a really good first season.
Looking forward to the finale tonight(well, tomorrow for me).

Work on Season 2 is already underway and according to the writer's room instagram:

Spoiler: S2 spoiler

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhpLeauHISf/

Either Tobias Whale will be back for S2, or he's joining the writing team

 

[Spot261]

So anyway... there's one thing we can all agree upon, and that's that this has been a really good first season.
Looking forward to the finale tonight(well, tomorrow for me).

Work on Season 2 is already underway and according to the writer's room instagram:

Spoiler: S2 spoiler

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhpLeauHISf/

Either Tobias Whale will be back for S2, or he's joining the writing team

Enjoy!