Khalil's journey as a black male, loss, (physical, psychological, etc.),assumed betrayal and other issues have nothing to do with "toxic masculinity", and actually does a disservice to what he's going through with that misapplied label.
Spoilers Black Lightning - Season 1
- Thread starter dahj
- Start date
I'm not so sure if it is actually connected to her breathing. She thinks it is and that's how she activates it but I would be willing to guess that in the future she learns to control her powers without the breathing part. It seems to me like she activates her powers through concentration and currently she uses that quick breath as a means of focusing that concentration.
Quite possibly. But on the other hand, breathing right is an important part of meditation and martial arts. It does have an impact on metabolism and energy levels as well as concentration. Maybe the sudden increase in blood oxygen is a trigger, say.
Uhm, it's not a "label" invented by evil lesbians to "put down men"(I can use quotes too
) or whatever the heck you think it is. It's an umbrella term for certain societal stereotypes ascribed to men that are damaging and harmful to society and to men themselves.In Khalil's case, he was conforming to the traditional male stereotypes, he was very competitive, self-reliant, he got the girl, was climbing upwards and he set the bar very high for himself. But the second those expectations suddenly could not be met, he was left utterly unable to cope with it, unable to express any emotion other than anger, and has turned to aggression and violence to reassert himself. Hence... toxic.
Now I know you realize the causality here, you pretty much said yourself how A led to B, but do you truly not recognize how the traditional male stereotypes are the underlying cause for why A led to B?
Consider Jennifer, who also had a sudden life-altering experience when she realized she had powers. She found out her family had lied to her all her life, that her life will be considerably more complicated, and that as a consequence of this she may never have the life she envisioned for herself. And sure she was just as angry about it, but she confronted her emotions, talked about what she was feeling with her mother, her sister and her father and is working through it, trying to adjust to her new situation and figuring out what it means for her.
Surely the contrast is obvious, does that not make you think that maybe there is something wrong there?
I would've thought it would be self-evident that "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic, any more than "spoiled milk" means that all milk is spoiled. If it were the default state, the modifier wouldn't be needed.
However, it just occurred to me that maybe the problem is that people who subscribe to a toxic view of masculinity assume that it's the only one that can possibly exist, because they've been raised to perceive any alternative form of male behavior as effeminate or weak. So when they hear their own particular dysfunctional definition of masculinity criticized, they see it as an attack on all masculinity, because they don't recognize the existence of any other kind. It's only once you realize that masculinity is a spectrum that you can understand how it's possible to criticize one interpretation of it without condemning the whole thing.
That said, I'm not sure I entirely agree that Khalil's behavior is just a manifestation of toxic masculinity. Certainly there's overlap, but I see it more as a case of Tobias manipulating him to feed on his anger. The difference between his situation and Jennifer's is that Jennifer had role models guiding her in a healthier direction, while Khalil fell under the influence of a corruptor. If their situations had been reversed, Jennifer might have been the one to take the darker path.
After all, I don't really agree that pre-accident Khalil was "conforming to male stereotypes." At least when it came to his relationship with Jennifer, he seemed very enlightened, patient, and considerate. He didn't push her into sex, but they discussed it in a smart, mature way and he respected her consent and her judgment, even if he was a little irresponsible about hygiene. So he was on the right track masculinity-wise, or so it seemed. It was the trauma of the accident and the manipulation by Tobias that brought out his darker side.
However, it just occurred to me that maybe the problem is that people who subscribe to a toxic view of masculinity assume that it's the only one that can possibly exist, because they've been raised to perceive any alternative form of male behavior as effeminate or weak. So when they hear their own particular dysfunctional definition of masculinity criticized, they see it as an attack on all masculinity, because they don't recognize the existence of any other kind. It's only once you realize that masculinity is a spectrum that you can understand how it's possible to criticize one interpretation of it without condemning the whole thing.
That said, I'm not sure I entirely agree that Khalil's behavior is just a manifestation of toxic masculinity. Certainly there's overlap, but I see it more as a case of Tobias manipulating him to feed on his anger. The difference between his situation and Jennifer's is that Jennifer had role models guiding her in a healthier direction, while Khalil fell under the influence of a corruptor. If their situations had been reversed, Jennifer might have been the one to take the darker path.
After all, I don't really agree that pre-accident Khalil was "conforming to male stereotypes." At least when it came to his relationship with Jennifer, he seemed very enlightened, patient, and considerate. He didn't push her into sex, but they discussed it in a smart, mature way and he respected her consent and her judgment, even if he was a little irresponsible about hygiene. So he was on the right track masculinity-wise, or so it seemed. It was the trauma of the accident and the manipulation by Tobias that brought out his darker side.
I never claimed it's just that, only that it's indicative of it.
That's fair. But I'm not sure it's what the writers are going for. I'd imagine it's more a commentary on the circumstances that affect young black men and often push them toward crime. That's a problem specific to the African-American community, whereas toxic masculinity is very often tied up with white supremacism, with the sense of being entitled to succeed and to take whatever you want at the expense of other people.
I do agree that the main takeaway is what pushes kids to crime, but I also don't think it's just incidental, considering this is a show that in the very first episode had Lala's cousin treat Jen like he owned her five minutes after they met, even tried to pimp her out, and had Anissa beat the shit out of a bunch of anti-lesbian assholes. The show has called attention to it before.
(On an unrelated note, bring back Grace already!)
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I would be surprised if Khalil ends the season on the dark side. This most recent episode showed him as a very conflicted person and he still very much cares about the people he used to care about. All that said, the writing on this show has been brilliant for the most part and easily rivals the Netflix Marvel shows. I hope that it catches more of an audience next year--although I don't exactly know the ratings for this year so maybe it is a break out hit--among mainstream viewers.
Uhm, it's not a "label" invented by evil lesbians to "put down men"(I can use quotes too
...which is utterly ignorant of the what and why state and experiences of young black males--particularly in Western society. No amount of present day psychobabble is applicable to that living history which shaped how innumerable black people live in countries like the U.S., and its not applicable to the clear as day dialogue from Khalil and other characters about his situation.
Hence...nonsense. The conversation Khalil had with Tobias, Jennifer and Jefferson speak to his black identity--which is not born of / encouraged by or feeding from the latest buzzword tossed about sans any reasoned study into the people it is attached to without justification. The black male (American) experience was already apart from others in that they have the expectation for achievement (as an individual, in a life choice/career, etc.) like any American, yet they--from the cradle--know they have societal (and in some cases government-generated) barriers ready to oppose them (often successfully) no matter the venue, no matter the interest, no matter the desire, and that presents a mountain that is either conquered, attempted (at least), or the last option--avoidance--due to failure or resigning oneself to a life of desolation. For the real world Khalil's that has nothing to do with "toxic masculinity" as used today--which is highly offensive in that it (as mentioned earlier) utterly ignores the what and why state and experiences of black males, all to force it all into that uninformed, grossly inapplicable category.
Jennifer was not paralyzed. Jennifer has the support of two engaged, available parents. Unlike Jennifer, Khalil's one way of improving life / being able to climb that aforementioned mountain was destroyed. Jennifer--unlike Khalil--did not have all of the "you can make it" / "you are somebody" talk go up in smoke as BS, with no support system (refer to his argument with Jefferson). Further, Jennifer is not in the grip of those who want to exploit her with the carrot of help / a miracle restoration---thanks to criminals (remove the sci-tech of the show, and he has endless parallels in real life). Jennifer has the option of using or suppressing her newfound power. Most see her situation as a dream come true instead of a curse (in other words, she's not Bruce Banner). To even compare her situation to Khalil's is such a derailed train of comparison, that it would almost suggest you were trolling...but you are not.
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Yeah, I read a few too many of your posts in the Supergirl threads not to expect you won't even attempt to understand anything that doesn't align with your views. I'm frankly surprised it took you entire 4 words into the post to call me ignorant. I expected just one with an exclamation point, repeating.
It's also soooooo surprising you're being dismissive of what Jennifer is going through...
Yeah, I read a few too many of your posts in the Supergirl threads not to expect you won't even attempt to understand anything that doesn't align with your views. I'm frankly surprised it took you entire 4 words into the post to call me ignorant. I expected just one with an exclamation point, repeating.
It's also soooooo surprising you're being dismissive of what Jennifer is going through...
Uhm, it's not a "label" invented by evil lesbians to "put down men"(I can use quotes too
In Khalil's case, he was conforming to the traditional male stereotypes, he was very competitive, self-reliant, he got the girl, was climbing upwards and he set the bar very high for himself. But the second those expectations suddenly could not be met, he was left utterly unable to cope with it, unable to express any emotion other than anger, and has turned to aggression and violence to reassert himself. Hence... toxic.
Now I know you realize the causality here, you pretty much said yourself how A led to B, but do you truly not recognize how the traditional male stereotypes are the underlying cause for why A led to B?
Consider Jennifer, who also had a sudden life-altering experience when she realized she had powers. She found out her family had lied to her all her life, that her life will be considerably more complicated, and that as a consequence of this she may never have the life she envisioned for herself. And sure she was just as angry about it, but she confronted her emotions, talked about what she was feeling with her mother, her sister and her father and is working through it, trying to adjust to her new situation and figuring out what it means for her.
Surely the contrast is obvious, does that not make you think that maybe there is something wrong there?
If someone coughs , it could be something deadly like ebola, something contagious but mild like a cold, or asthma, which isn't contagious at all.
The reaction to Khalil as toxic masculinity seems like an extrapolation not really borne out by what we have seen of Khalil.
When we first meet him, he's a virgin who is hesitant at sex, and in fact being more pressured by his girlfriend. He also seems to buy into Jefferson's Pierce philosophy. He has goals of moving out of the neighborhood -- not trying to fight the conditions. These are all NOT roots of toxic masculinity.
His current behavior & perspective, first of all, seems like a huge jump.... Black Lightning's "big fault" seems to be skipping ahead of things, missing a step in the process. (Another example is s the public calling Anissa Thunder when we haven't we didn't have like a TV news report saying "new Meta THUNDER has arrived in Freeland" for example).
Also, let's not forget Syonide being a big temptation in terms of her describing the power... seems like a woman could easily be tempted the same way
Khalil's behavior is far less "toxic masculinity" than Worf was exhibiting toxic Klingonicity" (tempered by relationships such as K'Leher, Martok and Jadzia, and exemplified by an older Alexander)
Khalil is more exhibiting the HUMAN problem of blaming OTHERS for their current problems, wanting power over that problem, and taking shortcuts for an easy solution. Toxic masculinity would be a small factor in this.
IF the genders were reversed for Khalil and Jennifer, the storyline could easily remain the same.
Uhm, it's not a "label" invented by evil lesbians to "put down men"(I can use quotes too
In Khalil's case, he was conforming to the traditional male stereotypes, he was very competitive, self-reliant, he got the girl, was climbing upwards and he set the bar very high for himself. But the second those expectations suddenly could not be met, he was left utterly unable to cope with it, unable to express any emotion other than anger, and has turned to aggression and violence to reassert himself. Hence... toxic.
Now I know you realize the causality here, you pretty much said yourself how A led to B, but do you truly not recognize how the traditional male stereotypes are the underlying cause for why A led to B?
Consider Jennifer, who also had a sudden life-altering experience when she realized she had powers. She found out her family had lied to her all her life, that her life will be considerably more complicated, and that as a consequence of this she may never have the life she envisioned for herself. And sure she was just as angry about it, but she confronted her emotions, talked about what she was feeling with her mother, her sister and her father and is working through it, trying to adjust to her new situation and figuring out what it means for her.
Surely the contrast is obvious, does that not make you think that maybe there is something wrong there?
Jennifer has a strong family that actually has experienced what she is going through, has a peer with a very similar experience, and has a potential "out" of the situation (Lynn's isolation of the gene). Her future is cloudy, but not without hope.
Khalil seems to only have his mom, who just doesn't have the money or experience to help. His one hope of leaving his (probably) dismal neighborhood/potential has been dashed. (Men AND women, especially in my neighborhood seem to jump on any opportunity to leave the community). The main person in his corner is a "bad guy" and his main assistant/2nd influence on Khalil is a woman . Seems more like "supernatural" power and the need to blame SOMEONE for his current hopeless situation is what is driving him, not toxic masculinity.
I am also interested in your ethnicity. It seems to me I smell some white privilege there, as you dismiss Trek God's point of it not being toxic masculinity rather than the pressures of a black man. The Akils , while making this a show accessible to all, DEFINITELY put black issues on the forefront, and it would be wise to take that into consideration.
The big call for diversity in the workplace, and especially in the media, is not JUST to have more people of color employed, but that their perspective is heard and even overriding white assumptions/priorities/perspectives, which might be misplaced.
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Pointing out toxic masculinity isn't ignoring the issues that black communities have to deal with, nor that those issues are this show's main focus. It's not an either-or thing, social problems and human behaviour are never one thing and to suggest that talking about one is denying the other is frankly ludicrous.
Of course. Jennifer has strong, stable family support, with both parents being intimately aware of her problems and actively work to help her. There is no way for her situation to be compared to Khalil's (poverty, paralysis, obligated to work for powerful criminals, lost dreams of escape and on and on) by any stretch of the imagination.
Yes, he is blaming others...or true to many black males in similar circumstances (i.e. rare opportunity ripped from him in what appeared to be a most permanent way), he sees the "helpers" and speech makers as hollow BS-ers offering nothing when he neeeded them most. That--and the rest of his behavior--has nothing to do with toxic masculinity.
Well said. In the rush to condemn the Khalil character with a completely unjustified, out-of-nowhere label, his clear as day issues as a black male--all associated, unique experiences and perceptions are constantly side-stepped or dismissed by dodge. That not only strongly suggests white privilege, but liberal white "I judge all / because I say so" privilege.
Anyone actually listening as well as watching the show would share your point, but if one sees things from a certain fixed agenda (to the point: males are guilty/no need for case by case, individual consideration of action and circumstance, as seen in dodge's offensive posts), then its easy to damn a character like Khalil, shoving his black male experiences/perception into the dump.
All level headed truth. The problem is when the ruling producers of media content (predominantly white liberals) sell thmselves as the ultimate in progressive beliefs, they conveniently ignore the fact their most promoted agenda(s) kick the real issues / experiences and world views of others (e.g. black people) aside in favor of stamping their willfully incorrect labels on a group they do not understand, and are not trying to, as seen in this thread.
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Mention toxic masculinity, get a wonderful display of it. Who knew?
I particularly love how you've dismissed everything I've said, invented arguments I never made, and then accused me of dismissing you when I've said a grand total of fuck all about your tirades against things I've never said. Stay classy.
Mention toxic masculinity, get a wonderful display of it. Who knew?
I particularly love how you've dismissed everything I've said, invented arguments I never made, and then accused me of dismissing you when I've said a grand total of fuck all about your tirades against things I've never said. Stay classy.
Wow, things are getting a little intense up in here. FWIW, I think TREK_GOD_1 is making some excellent points from a knowledgeable perspective (though I wish he could be as sympathetic and receptive to Supergirl's focus on women's concerns as he is to BL's prioritizing of black issues). I also think it's a bit of overkill to characterize dodge's posts as "offensive," but I do feel he could afford to give a little ground at this point. Just my totally unsolicited two cents.
So how about my posts?^^
Mention toxic masculinity, get a wonderful display of it. Who knew?
I particularly love how you've dismissed everything I've said, invented arguments I never made, and then accused me of dismissing you when I've said a grand total of fuck all about your tirades against things I've never said. Stay classy.
But the way you abd Christopher talk about it, it seems like toxic masculinity is what is driving Khalil, when you are misdiagnosing the problem, and of ignoring the evidence (or at least downplaying it significantly) the show has established about Khalil
Thank you for understanding the point about the Khalil character..
As you see, dodge throws that overused and often misapplied label at anyone (flaming is the first sign that a member has no solid ground beneath his posts), as it is suits his agenda du jour. To me, that is offensive as he utterly dismissed or ignored the reality of a black male and his struggles / perception, all to force the Khalil character into that agenda box with no evidence-based reason at all. He can continue to insult, offend or whatever he sees fit to do, but that will not provide cover for what he was attempting to do with a character--although in a fantasy series-speaking to many issues faced by black males, particularly in North America.
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