Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?

[Anwar]

Like I said, it was Ken Biller who did the 7/Chakotay thing, not Braga. He was against it since his plan was to kill Seven off in the finale.

This whole thing about him intentioanlly ****ing the fans is just madeup nonsense by the guys who think B&B are responsible for the crucifixtion of Jesus.

As for Braga and DS9, he'd have done a fine job if you take into account the one DS9/TNG crossover he did do, "Birthright" part one.

 

[RyanKCR]

For me it would be most of TNG. Instead of Sci-Fi we got soap opera other inane type stories. Worf dealing with issues of being a sudden single father etc. Where's the Sci-Fi? Later seasons (5-7) started to bring that back but still too much on Charecters and not enough of what good sci-fi is (impact of technology ect on the human condition). As far as the movies FC was okay and Nemesis edged it out a bit. But the best of Trek for me is the first 3 movies. I want to see more of that.

 

[exodus]

I've always heard Trek isn't about sci-fi but rather about people who just happen to live in space.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:
he'd have done a fine job if you take into account the one DS9/TNG crossover he did do, "Birthright" part one.

Well that's possibly true, if we wanted DS9 to have remained at a similar level of quality that it was throughout season one, and we're not talking about the likes of Duet here.

 

[Angel4576]

Captain Jack Sparrow said:
As far as the movies FC was okay and Nemesis edged it out a bit. But the best of Trek for me is the first 3 movies. I want to see more of that.

Because of course, Star Trek IV in no way, shape or form has anything about the impact of technology on the human condition.....

 

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:

Anwar said:
he'd have done a fine job if you take into account the one DS9/TNG crossover he did do, "Birthright" part one.

Well that's possibly true, if we wanted DS9 to have remained at a similar level of quality that it was throughout season one, and we're not talking about the likes of Duet here.

Seeing how at the time DS9 was still rather lighthearted an didn't get the darker tone until S2, I think Braga would cope with it and write accordingly. He did a pretty good job of "dark" with "Year of Hell" (and don't bring up the "it was reset" thing, he was forced into that and you know it) and on DS9 he wouldn't have UPN breathing down his neck and ****ing him over at every turn.

 

[Angel4576]

Moore was always the stronger half of the writing partnership with Braga.

Braga - Voyager, Enterprise, Threshold
Moore - DS9, Carnivale, Battlestar Galactica

Speaks for itself.

 

[Anwar]

DS9 is more due to Michael Piller and Ira Behr, Moore was just a writer there.

Carnivale, never watched it. I did hear something about how it showed how Moore couldn't writer a decent ending or something but I'm reserving judgement.

BSG, I really can't watch it anymore.

VOY, I told you it was F***ed from before Day One by UPN.

ENT, similarly. S4 worked because UPN had a management change and backed off, which coincidentally allowed Coto to do have stronger control.

Threshold, I liked that actually...

 

[RyanKCR]

Angel4576 said:

Captain Jack Sparrow said:
As far as the movies FC was okay and Nemesis edged it out a bit. But the best of Trek for me is the first 3 movies. I want to see more of that.

Because of course, Star Trek IV in no way, shape or form has anything about the impact of technology on the human condition.....

That was more of a fish-out-of-water type story and was not a real serious look at how technology, etc. impacts us.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:
DS9 is more due to Michael Piller and Ira Behr, Moore was just a writer there.

Carnivale, never watched it. I did hear something about how it showed how Moore couldn't writer a decent ending or something but I'm reserving judgement.

BSG, I really can't watch it anymore.

VOY, I told you it was F***ed from before Day One by UPN.

ENT, similarly. S4 worked because UPN had a management change and backed off, which coincidentally allowed Coto to do have stronger control.

Threshold, I liked that actually...

Moore was co-executive producer from season 5, the supervising producer before that since he joined the show at the beginning of season 3, which was pretty much where the series started to kick into gear. You're right though, Moore contributed quite a few scripts as well, including some of DS9's best.

Carnivale was a creative masterpiece. The gulf in class between that show and Threshold is like comparing a gold bar to a house brick.

Battlestar's far superior to any other space-based shows produced pretty much since the likes of Firely/Farscape bit the dust. It's what Voyager should have been, rather than the turgid mess it turned out to be.

 

[Angel4576]

Captain Jack Sparrow said:

Angel4576 said:

Captain Jack Sparrow said:
As far as the movies FC was okay and Nemesis edged it out a bit. But the best of Trek for me is the first 3 movies. I want to see more of that.

Because of course, Star Trek IV in no way, shape or form has anything about the impact of technology on the human condition.....

That was more of a fish-out-of-water type story and was not a real serious look at how technology, etc. impacts us.

Whilst The Search for Spock showed us?

 

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:
Battlestar's far superior to any other space-based shows produced pretty much since the likes of Firely/Farscape bit the dust. It's what Voyager should have been, rather than the turgid mess it turned out to be.

Dude, I keep telling you. VOY being the way it was wasn't because of B&B, especially since Braga was only a Producer for S4 and S5.

Take it off UPN, and put Jeri Taylor in her place, THEN you get something more like nuBSG (even though I don't really like nuBSG all that much myself).

Here, why don't you tell me what you think of MY ideas?

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7860084&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

 

[Angel4576]

^^ Certainly sounds better than what we got onscreen.

I don't doubt that Voyager could have been better. That much is painfully obvious, but I still doubt that Braga in particular would have made that much of a difference. DS9 was great because they had Piller, Behr, Moore, Beimler, Hewitt-Wolff, Echevarria, and countless others. Voyager had practically no one of note, and the less said about Biller, or Jeri Taylor the better.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Angel4576 said:
Moore was always the stronger half of the writing partnership with Braga.

Braga - Voyager, Enterprise, Threshold
Moore - DS9, Carnivale, Battlestar Galactica

Speaks for itself.

I think Moore had more creative freedom than Braga did. DS9 had the least restrictions of any trek and he complained about those.

 

[Angel4576]

Good for him I say. Straczynski showed what was possible when the network kept it's nose out, and showed what to do if they didn't.

To be honest, if the network interference was that bad for Braga, I don't see him hanging around post Voyager to go through it all again with Enterprise. And even after that, wasn't Threshold on UPN as well?

 

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:
^^ Certainly sounds better than what we got onscreen.

I don't doubt that Voyager could have been better. That much is painfully obvious, but I still doubt that Braga in particular would have made that much of a difference. DS9 was great because they had Piller, Behr, Moore, Beimler, Hewitt-Wolff, Echevarria, and countless others. Voyager had practically no one of note, and the less said about Biller, or Jeri Taylor the better.

Yeah, that was another problem. All the best writers from TNG went to DS9.

If they had held off on VOY for another year like Berman wanted, he and Piller may have been able to get some new blood in there.

As for Braga, two of the stories he wrote ("Year of Hell" and "Living Witness") were among VOY's best stories, and if they had gone with his plan to do a real "Year of Hell" and stick with that sort of "feel" with the show it would've turned it around for the detractors.

I'm starting to think that Piller and Braga were the only two guys in charge who took the show's premise seriously. Taylor and Biller sure didn't.

 

[Anwar]

Angel4576 said:
Good for him I say. Straczynski showed what was possible when the network kept it's nose out, and showed what to do if they didn't.

To be honest, if the network interference was that bad for Braga, I don't see him hanging around post Voyager to go through it all again with Enterprise. And even after that, wasn't Threshold on UPN as well?

His contract as a Producer wasn't up when they ordered him to start working on ENT, so he kind of had to do it.

Threshold was on CBS.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:

Angel4576 said:
^^ Certainly sounds better than what we got onscreen.

I don't doubt that Voyager could have been better. That much is painfully obvious, but I still doubt that Braga in particular would have made that much of a difference. DS9 was great because they had Piller, Behr, Moore, Beimler, Hewitt-Wolff, Echevarria, and countless others. Voyager had practically no one of note, and the less said about Biller, or Jeri Taylor the better.

Yeah, that was another problem. All the best writers from TNG went to DS9.

If they had held off on VOY for another year like Berman wanted, he and Piller may have been able to get some new blood in there.

As for Braga, two of the stories he wrote ("Year of Hell" and "Living Witness") were among VOY's best stories, and if they had gone with his plan to do a real "Year of Hell" and stick with that sort of "feel" with the show it would've turned it around for the detractors.

I'm starting to think that Piller and Braga were the only two guys in charge who took the show's premise seriously. Taylor and Biller sure didn't.

I'll give Braga his due, he certainly can't hold a candle to Biller/Taylor in the 'fucking Trek over' stakes.

 

[JD]

No, Threshold (which I actually liked) was on CBS.

 

[Angel4576]

Anwar said:

Angel4576 said:
Good for him I say. Straczynski showed what was possible when the network kept it's nose out, and showed what to do if they didn't.

To be honest, if the network interference was that bad for Braga, I don't see him hanging around post Voyager to go through it all again with Enterprise. And even after that, wasn't Threshold on UPN as well?

His contract as a Producer wasn't up when they ordered him to start working on ENT, so he kind of had to do it.

Threshold was on CBS.

It depends on the terms of the contract as they were. AFAIK, he certainly had no 'golden handcuffs' deal to keep him with Paramount after Voyager. Beyond that though, as we've seen countless times over recent years, if someone wants out, they can usually find a way.

Threshold was pretty woeful, surely we can't keep blaming 'network interference'