Biggest insulting slap-in-the-face episode for fans?

[Angel4576]

Captain Jack Sparrow said:
The rush for new technology without thinking about what you are really doing can have disastrous effects.

Nothing new added there. A cautionary tale that's been told countless times before.

Besides, it's little more than a glorified social commentary on the discovery and application of nuclear fission.

B5 handled this cautionary tale much better with the human exploitation of shadow technology.

Captain Jack Sparrow said:
I could not get into B5 and thought it was very lame and brought nothing new to the table.

What is B5?

B5 is about the turmoil of the human condition and the struggle to transcend it, about a long twilight struggle against the lesser angels of our nature. This is about the exploration of archetypes that have helped us to define the human condition. It's a deliberate focus on the painful duality of human nature and the incredible darkness underlying it. It's about the primacy of fear, prejudice and self-interest over last-ditch, heartfelt appeals to reason, open-mindedness and sacrifice for the greater good. Its about dealing with life as it is, not life as we wish it could be or life as we may have once envisioned it. B5 is about severed dreams, the death of grandiose visions and the effort to adjust and build new ones.

In essence, B5 is a much more realistic examination of the human condition than Star Trek has ever been. Star Trek, whilst providing social commentary, and examination, has always been restricted by the narrow confines of its nature and Roddenberry's misplaced faith in the belief that 'everything will be alright in the future'. Technologically, things might be better, but we'll still be dogged by the same old sociological flaws as a species. Our technological curve will progress at a faster rate than our sociological curve, which will inevitably have consequences. This concept is better explored in B5. Whilst Star Trek tries, it's far too often a much blander examination.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:


I disagree. If he was so 'special' why would they assign him to such a dangerous position in Star Fleet?

Dangerous postion?

The Enterprise isn't a ship built for war or battle, it's a ship of peace. It's main function is survey and escort other worlds into the Federation. Picard is a diplomat and ambassidor, not a soldier. Why do you think he tries to talk his way out of every battle? The Defiant & Voyager are ships built for combat purposes. This is why the Enterprise-D couldn't really fight the Borg, it's the equilivant of the QE2. It's big, slow and no manuverability. It's a sitting duck in combat. Voyager gets passed the Borg because it's designed smaller and to be fast. It's harder to get a soild lock on it because of those reasons. Voyager unlike the Enterprise, is self sustaining. It's a scout ship, it was meant to be out of Strafleets range for long periods of time. That would be a dangerous ship for Data to be on.

The Enterprise is only meant to show up to situations before they become hostile. The Enterprise is the symbol that the Federation is serious about keeping the peace. That's why it's the flagship of the Federation.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ I'm not entirely convinced that you've made your point there. The Enterprise is a Galaxy-class starship. If Galaxy-class starships are so unsuited to combat, why send one into the Gamma Quadrant into a potentially (and in the end as it turned out, literally explosive) confrontation with the Dominion? They already had intelligence that the Dominion were a formidable foe, why send a 'cruise liner' in there?

Also, Picard's crew still followed the 'to boldly go' mandate. Given their likely exploration of the unknown, I think we have to at least concede that 'perhaps' Data's position on board was slightly risky given his uniqueness.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
The Enterprise isn't a ship built for war or battle, it's a ship of peace. It's main function is survey and escort other worlds into the Federation. Picard is a diplomat and ambassidor, not a soldier. Why do you think he tries to talk his way out of every battle? The Defiant & Voyager are ships built for combat purposes. This is why the Enterprise-D couldn't really fight the Borg, it's the equilivant of the QE2. It's big, slow and no manuverability. It's a sitting duck in combat. Voyager gets passed the Borg because it's designed smaller and to be fast. It's harder to get a soild lock on it because of those reasons. Voyager unlike the Enterprise, is self sustaining. It's a scout ship, it was meant to be out of Strafleets range for long periods of time. That would be a dangerous ship for Data to be on.

The Enterprise is only meant to show up to situations before they become hostile. The Enterprise is the symbol that the Federation is serious about keeping the peace. That's why it's the flagship of the Federation.

Come on. Based on the canon of the show the number of times they face life and death situations it says otherwise.

Besides, the Enterprise E was re-designed to be a ship of war - without families - and essentially the real life equivalent of a aircraft carrier - constantly on patrol.

Why was Data resigned to the E if he was so 'special?'

Edited to add: especially after the saucer section crash landed. Surely they must have suffered hundreds of casualties after that landing.

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
^^ I'm not entirely convinced that you've made your point there. The Enterprise is a Galaxy-class starship. If Galaxy-class starships are so unsuited to combat, why send one into the Gamma Quadrant into a potentially (and in the end as it turned out, literally explosive) confrontation with the Dominion? They already had intelligence that the Dominion were a formidable foe, why send a 'cruise liner' in there?

Also, Picard's crew still followed the 'to boldly go' mandate. Given their likely exploration of the unknown, I think we have to at least concede that 'perhaps' Data's position on board was slightly risky given his uniqueness.

To answer your first question: it was the only Federation ship available in that sector at the time. Sisko asks about it & touches upon it breifly in that same ep.


Second question is: The Enterprise never left Federation/Starfleet protected territory. If you rewatch all of TNG, the Enterprise never ventures outside of boarders that isn't protected or previously explored by Starfleet. In a ship that big which is equally matched in fire power to only a Romulan Warbird,(..and the Romulan's never throw the first punch) nothing less than a warp core breach could destroy it. Only other alien that would threaten it would be a Borg Cube. Data is relitivily safe onboard the Enterprise. Being the Flagship, the entire crew is meant to be the best of the best Starfleet has to offer. They wouldn't put all those top ranked officers in extreme danger.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
The Enterprise isn't a ship built for war or battle, it's a ship of peace. It's main function is survey and escort other worlds into the Federation. Picard is a diplomat and ambassidor, not a soldier. Why do you think he tries to talk his way out of every battle? The Defiant & Voyager are ships built for combat purposes. This is why the Enterprise-D couldn't really fight the Borg, it's the equilivant of the QE2. It's big, slow and no manuverability. It's a sitting duck in combat. Voyager gets passed the Borg because it's designed smaller and to be fast. It's harder to get a soild lock on it because of those reasons. Voyager unlike the Enterprise, is self sustaining. It's a scout ship, it was meant to be out of Strafleets range for long periods of time. That would be a dangerous ship for Data to be on.

The Enterprise is only meant to show up to situations before they become hostile. The Enterprise is the symbol that the Federation is serious about keeping the peace. That's why it's the flagship of the Federation.

Come on. Based on the canon of the show the number of times they face life and death situations it says otherwise.

Besides, the Enterprise E was re-designed to be a ship of war - without families - and essentially the real life equivalent of a aircraft carrier - constantly on patrol.

Why was Data resigned to the E if he was so 'special?'

Edited to add: especially after the saucer section crash landed. Surely they must have suffered hundreds of casualties after that landing.

After the Borg scare, they realized Q was right and they weren't prepared for what they faced in the galaxy. After WORF 359, ship designs and pruposed changed. Remember Picard's line in "Insurrection": "Does anybody remember when we were explorers?"

Your right , Picard and crew did believe they were in real life or death situations. Then came the Borg and Dominion, then Starfleet learned what what a real life and death threat were. Klingons & Romulans aren't much of a concren anymore, were they?

America used to believe our biggest threat was Russia. Nobody suspected the Middle East would be much worse. Look how our thinking and way of life changed because of it.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ I think the point is though, that simply having them patrolling the borders of Federation space is hazardous enough. How many times did they escape a perilous situation by the skin of their teeth? It always left them prone to being 'the only ship in the sector'.

Didn't they also enter the neutral zone at some point?

His posting aside, there were other issues. Data's assigned to most away missions. On more than a few occasions, deployed on his own.

Personally, I think that after the events of The Measure of a Man, Data's pretty much free to choose to go wherever he wants, and face as much danger as he chooses. Prior to that though, the decision to let Data serve aboard the Enterprise is extremely questionable IMO.

 

[DarthTom]

exodus said:
After the Borg scare, they relized Q was right and they weren't prepared for what they faced in the galaxy. After WORF 359, ship designs and pruposed changed. Remember Picard's line in "Insurrection": "Does anybody remember when we were explorers?"

Your assertion is that Data was 'too special' to be put in harms way. I'm countering that keeping Data on the Enterprise [especially] after the saucer section crashed is akin to letting the USS Ronald Reagan carry around the real actual copy of the US Constitution to display to new countries. Such a thing wouldn't make sense.

 

[TeutonicNights]

JAKE
Nog, listen to me. We're in way
over our heads here. Someone told
me that ship out there is twice
the size of a Galaxy-class
starship and three times as strong.


(DS9, Valiant, talking about the new huge Dominion dreadnought)

now why would anyone say that if the Galaxy was not a kick ass mighty starship. Saying the Galaxy class is not strong is rather ridiculous imho.

 

[Angel4576]

exodus said:
After WORF 359

Wolf 359?

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
^^ I think the point is though, that simply having them patrolling the borders of Federation space is hazardous enough. How many times did they escape a perilous situation by the skin of their teeth? It always left them prone to being 'the only ship in the sector'.

Didn't they also enter the neutral zone at some point?

His posting aside, there were other issues. Data's assigned to most away missions. On more than a few occasions, deployed on his own.

Personally, I think that after the events of The Measure of a Man, Data's pretty much free to choose to go wherever he wants, and face as much danger as he chooses. Prior to that though, the decision to let Data serve aboard the Enterprise is extremely questionable IMO.

It's military, so there is always a risk. My point is, to what degree is that risk? The risk is greater serving at DS9 and lesser onboard the Enterprise.

 

[exodus]

DarthTom said:

exodus said:
After the Borg scare, they relized Q was right and they weren't prepared for what they faced in the galaxy. After WORF 359, ship designs and pruposed changed. Remember Picard's line in "Insurrection": "Does anybody remember when we were explorers?"

Your assertion is that Data was 'too special' to be put in harms way. I'm countering that keeping Data on the Enterprise [especially] after the saucer section crashed is akin to letting the USS Ronald Reagan carry around the real actual copy of the US Constitution to display to new countries. Such a thing wouldn't make sense.

As is your idea that a saucer section was meant to crash into a planets surface. You keep saying it as if that what it was designed to do.

TentonicNights , that's why most fans can't understand why the ships at WOLF 359(Shut up, Angel ) got their asses kicked by the Borg and Voyager & Defiant don't. How many times was it mentioned on DS9 how much more advanced in technology and weaponary was the Dominion over Starfleet? Plus, what does Jake(someone not in military with no training and no information) really know about the capabilities of a Galaxy Class? How much does the common man know about war ships? We just assume they're strong enough, besides if a Dominion ship is twice as strong. Guess what, a Galaxy Class isn't so kick ass anymore, is it? Plus I've address how nothing short of a Borg Cube or warp core breach would destroy it.

 

[JD]

B4 was simply there way of trying to be able pull a TSFS with Data's death. IMO that's another way it ripped off TWOK/TSFS, B4 with Data's memories=Bones with Spock's Katra.

 

[Angel4576]

^^ Possibly. It depends on what the Enterprise was doing during the Dominion war. Given that the Federation would have needed to use every ship at its disposal during the war I think it's safe to assume that the Enterprise would have seen it's fair share of action. DS9 may have been on the frontline, but there were very few direct attacks by the Dominion against DS9. Was it just the one at the end of season five? Conceivably, the Enterprise probably saw more direct action during the war than the station did.

The point I'd make here is that Data has rights, and consequently can do whatever he wants. Granted, these rights were only established in The Measure of a Man, but still, Starfleet let him attend and graduate Starfleet Academy in the first place. Hard to believe that they would have afforded that to a purely military 'asset'.

 

[Angel4576]

JD said:
B4 was simply there way of trying to be able pull a TSFS with Data's death. IMO that's another way it ripped off TWOK/TSFS, B4 with Data's memories=Bones with Spock's Katra.

Couldn't agree more. Held that opinion since the first time I saw it. That coupled with the ship-to-ship battle in the nebula, <cough> rip off <cough>

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
^^ Possibly. It depends on what the Enterprise was doing during the Dominion war. Given that the Federation would have needed to use every ship at its disposal during the war I think it's safe to assume that the Enterprise would have seen it's fair share of action. DS9 may have been on the frontline, but there were very few direct attacks by the Dominion against DS9. Was it just the one at the end of season five? Conceivably, the Enterprise probably saw more direct action during the war than the station did.

The point I'd make here is that Data has rights, and consequently can do whatever he wants. Granted, these rights were only established in The Measure of a Man, but still, Starfleet let him attend and graduate Starfleet Academy in the first place. Hard to believe that they would have afforded that to a purely military 'asset'.

I doubt it but not improbable.

Picard being an ambassidor and putting him in battle is like giving members of the UN assult rifles and putting them on the front lines. Picard doesn't think or react like Sisko does. Sisko is regarded as the greatest combat Officer in Starfleet.

Well with Data's skills, he's be a waste at a desk job. He's more useful on a starship.

 

[Angel4576]

^^Kofi Annan with an AK-47? Brilliant!

I don't think the Federation would have had much choice in utilising the Enterprise during the Dominion war. There were times where they were really taking a beating, especially before the Romulans entered the war.

I'd agree re Data's worth behind a desk. I persist that from a purely scientific point of view, it was a risky situation, but Data's rights and his contribution outweigh that.

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:
^^Kofi Annan with an AK-47? Brilliant!

I don't think the Federation would have had much choice in utilising the Enterprise during the Dominion war. There were times where they were really taking a beating, especially before the Romulans entered the war.

I'd agree re Data's worth behind a desk. I persist that from a purely scientific point of view, it was a risky situation, but Data's rights and his contribution outweigh that.

I'd love to photoshop that Kofi Annan idea.

I know you keep bringing it up, but Data's rights aren't ever in question here. I believe it's his position on where he serves in Starfleet that is. I have no arguement about Data's rights as a being nor his rights to choose. However, his statement and actions are a contradiction. He did however address why he serves in Starfleet in "The Most Toys".

 

[Angel4576]

^^ That's a fair point. Individual rights are one thing, but presumably, as a member of Starfleet, he'll serve where he's told to.

 

[exodus]

Angel4576 said:

exodus said:
After WORF 359

Wolf 359?

This is also why you should never type while on the job. I'm too busy checking for the boss to properly proofread.