Big Finish get River Song (and lots more!)

[DS9Continuing]

That's a fair assessment. Certainly the kids on SJA often seemed to know what they were doing better than the Torchwood gang did, and were less prone to screwing things up through their own actions.

Having flawed characters is a bad thing?

Not at all, but they need to still have admirable qualities as well. For some reason RTD, when populating his shows that are designed for 'adults' (as opposed to children or families), likes to create the most unappealing characters he can possibly think up. Not a single person in the first season of Torchwood was likable IMO, and the same with his recent Cucumber/Banana. All the most unpleasant people you could ever hope to meet. Having flaws is fine, but having nothing but flaws is really not. Why would I want to watch people like that?

Anyway, rant over.

.

 

[Ithekro]

I would attribute that a bit to Elizabeth Sladen being somewhat of a lady, while John Barrowman, despite being a workaholic, is just a big kid at heart. A big campy kid at that.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

But in retrospect, that's exactly what Smith's entire era was. I'm not sure at what point in Eleven's life he figured out he was the last one - it might have been right away, it might have been later.

If he hadn't figured it out before then, 'Let's Kill Hitler' would have spelled it out for him. First having to be told by Amelia-as-TARDIS-avatar 'Regeneration has been disabled,' and then having River's regen energy (enough for 10 full regenerations) pumped into him - and he didn't then change - would have clinched it.

Looking back, I'm a little ashamed none of us saw it then. When Moffat first hinted that Smith was the last, and said 'Look again, there's something you've forgot,' we all went "Huh?"

If thats true, then he deliberately sabotaged any way of bringing Eccleston back for the 50th, which is ludicrous.

Also, that implies that Moffat had a grand design that included both the Warrior and bringing back Gallifrey, both of which are clearly late ideas.

 

[Christopher]

I would attribute that a bit to Elizabeth Sladen being somewhat of a lady, while John Barrowman, despite being a workaholic, is just a big kid at heart. A big campy kid at that.

I saw part of Barrowman's talk at the Shore Leave convention last weekend, and while he definitely had the flamboyance and sense of fun that Captain Jack had, he definitely seemed to be a more responsible adult than Jack. He had some rather inspiring advice for LGBT people in the audience about embracing who they are, and he talked about how he's working on a project to provide foster care for LGBT children, because apparently the existing foster system isn't always responsive to their needs, and some foster parents' belief systems lead them to reject or mistreat LGBT kids. He was pretty impressive, although there was a lot of raunchy humor to his talk as well.

 

[Ithekro]

Somehow I think Moffat always wanted for 11 to be the last Doctor just so he could get the whole regeneration limit out of the way. Even without the War Doctor added into the mix, there were plenty of things going on to see that the Doctor might "waste" enough regeneration energy in this form to not be able to regenerate one more time. That Eccleston just gave him a bonus and easier way to have 11 be the last Doctor at the end.

What didn't help was that Matt Smith decided to leave with basically only one episode left in his run. Even though there were like eight months or something they could use to figure out that problem before filming it, they still only had one episode to wrap it up. This is assuming they he decided to step down during or just after the filming of the Day of the Doctor, instead of during Season 7.

 

[DS9Continuing]

I would attribute that a bit to Elizabeth Sladen being somewhat of a lady, while John Barrowman, despite being a workaholic, is just a big kid at heart. A big campy kid at that.

I saw part of Barrowman's talk at the Shore Leave convention last weekend, and while he definitely had the flamboyance and sense of fun that Captain Jack had, he definitely seemed to be a more responsible adult than Jack. He had some rather inspiring advice for LGBT people in the audience about embracing who they are, and he talked about how he's working on a project to provide foster care for LGBT children, because apparently the existing foster system isn't always responsive to their needs, and some foster parents' belief systems lead them to reject or mistreat LGBT kids. He was pretty impressive, although there was a lot of raunchy humor to his talk as well.

Oh absolutely, I don't blame Barrowman for Jack's occasional assholeish qualities, not at all - I blame RTD. I have no problems with Barrowman at all besides him being a bit exhausting. I interviewed him once at my old magazine. He's kind of like an overactive kid on a sugar high, but he's also a wonderful role model for LGBT kids and he takes that very seriously. Not to mention that I've wanted to hit that all up one side and down the other ever since back in his Central Park West days.

No, Torchwood's problems I definitely lay at the feet of RTD.

.

 

[The Wormhole]

But in retrospect, that's exactly what Smith's entire era was. I'm not sure at what point in Eleven's life he figured out he was the last one - it might have been right away, it might have been later. But every season with Smith addressed the death of the Doctor in some way. Season 5 ended with the apparent destruction of the Tardis. Season 6 was all about a long-form assassination attempt. And season 7 ended with his grave.

To be fair it probably wasn't intended that way, but in retrospect you can see the knowledge that he was the last incarnation in his motivation to first accept his death, then to try to stave it off as long as possible, then to hide away so people wouldn't want to kill him anymore.

While that's an interesting observation in hindsight, it definitely wasn't intentional, given it has been documented that the whole "out of regenerations" part of Time of the Doctor was added as a last-minute re-write, the original plan was something about Trenzalore prevented regenerations until the Time Lords lifted that at the end.

I haven't seen a huge amount of SJA, but what I have seen left me with the impression that, despite it being designed for children, it was often more mature than the made-for-adults Torchwood, which in practise was very juvenile at times.

Sort of. What makes Torchwood immature particularly in its first season was they just had tits, violence and swearing for no reasons other than because they can, not for any real relevance to the story or anything. Some of it RTD came to regret right away, The Writer's Tale has him lamenting about how distracting it actually can be to hear profanity on television and all it does is draw attention to the fact the show is post-watershed. Since SJA wasn't experimenting with what you can do on TV late at night, they just went and told their stories and came off as more mature because of it. Although, despite being aimed at a child audience SJA also dealt with some very mature themes regarding the homeless and death and even touched upon the military becoming too paranoid for its own good.

But in retrospect, that's exactly what Smith's entire era was. I'm not sure at what point in Eleven's life he figured out he was the last one - it might have been right away, it might have been later.

If he hadn't figured it out before then, 'Let's Kill Hitler' would have spelled it out for him. First having to be told by Amelia-as-TARDIS-avatar 'Regeneration has been disabled,' and then having River's regen energy (enough for 10 full regenerations) pumped into him - and he didn't then change - would have clinched it.

Looking back, I'm a little ashamed none of us saw it then. When Moffat first hinted that Smith was the last, and said 'Look again, there's something you've forgot,' we all went "Huh?"

Like I said above, the reason no one picked up on it while it was airing was because it wasn't part of the plan. In fact, in Nightmare in Silver when the Doctor tells the Cyber-presence in his head "I can regenerate right now" that's not meant to be a bluff or misdirection, when Neil Gaiman wrote that he genuinely believed Matt Smith was only the Eleventh Doctor, he didn't know there was another incarnation before Eccleston, or that Tennant's aborted regeneration actually counted.

In fact, when Moffat did begin his "there's something you forgot" thing, several people did figure he was referring to Tennant's aborted regeneration and that it would indeed now count. I myself even got shot down on this very forum for suggesting that.

What didn't help was that Matt Smith decided to leave with basically only one episode left in his run. Even though there were like eight months or something they could use to figure out that problem before filming it, they still only had one episode to wrap it up. This is assuming they he decided to step down during or just after the filming of the Day of the Doctor, instead of during Season 7.

Moffat claims he knew of Matt Smith's departure plans prior to Day of the Doctor being written.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Looking back, I'm a little ashamed none of us saw it then. When Moffat first hinted that Smith was the last, and said 'Look again, there's something you've forgot,' we all went "Huh?"

In fact, when Moffat did begin his "there's something you forgot" thing, several people did figure he was referring to Tennant's aborted regeneration and that it would indeed now count. I myself even got shot down on this very forum for suggesting that.

Shoot, some people (and yes, myself included) thought as far back as "Journey's End" that the aborted regeneration counted. When a friend of mine said, "No, that doesn't count," my reply was, "He cracked the seal. It counts."

 

[NightJim]

Moffat claims he knew of Matt Smith's departure plans prior to Day of the Doctor being written.

I'm not sure why you're phrasing it like that. There's plenty of interviews where they all talk about the decision had been made by that point. It was during the filming that Tennant and Smith realised how much fun the Doctor can be, and came up with the concept of sharing a season, half 10 half 11, with the arc being something that extended over the two lives. While Moffat was tempted, they were already far too far along the planning of the 12th Doctor (in retrospect I almost think that Capaldi might have already been cast). Plus there's that whole "only one Doctor at a time" thing that Moffat has.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I'm not sure why you're phrasing it like that. There's plenty of interviews where they all talk about the decision had been made by that point. It was during the filming that Tennant and Smith realised how much fun the Doctor can be, and came up with the concept of sharing a season, half 10 half 11, with the arc being something that extended over the two lives. While Moffat was tempted, they were already far too far along the planning of the 12th Doctor (in retrospect I almost think that Capaldi might have already been cast). Plus there's that whole "only one Doctor at a time" thing that Moffat has.

"Day of the Doctor" was filmed in April. Capaldi was announced in August, and it appears the final decision between Capaldi and Ben Daniels wasn't made until about two weeks before the announcement. In other words, had Moffat decided to do Smith's "two Doctors" season in April, they had the time to alter any nascent plans for the twelfth Doctor.

 

[ClayinCA]

So Ben Daniels was in the running after all? I had always understood that Capaldi was the first and only choice for the Twelfth Doctor. Is that a case of "Moffat Lies"?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

So Ben Daniels was in the running after all? I had always understood that Capaldi was the first and only choice for the Twelfth Doctor. Is that a case of "Moffat Lies"?

Daniels says he was, and I don't see any upside to him fibbing about it. The downside is obvious; lying about a part would be a quick way to damage his career in the small and insular world of British television.

From his description of the casting process, it sounds like what passed for auditions happened around May 2013.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction between having a "first and only choice" and looking at more than one candidate. You may have someone in mind as your first choice for a role, but still look at other actors for due diligence. And if none of them can compete with your first choice, then you can say that was the only choice, because no real competitor ever emerged.

 

[ClayinCA]

Makes sense. Huh, interesting--Ben Daniels would have been a fascinating Doctor, though less of an immediate contrast with his predecessors than Capaldi turned out to be, by virtue of Daniels' being younger. It's always interesting to think about what might have been (I still wonder what the Eleventh Doctor as played by Paterson Joseph would have been like).

 

[Csalem]

Just a quick note on Death of the Doctor: it is well worth getting the special edition DVD of The Green Death as it not only contains the SJA episode but a commentary by RTD and Katy Manning.
The DVD also contains interesting extra on how Doctor Who came back in 2005 with interviews with RTD and Jane Tranter.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Has Daniels been cast, I wonder how much would've been made of the fact that he's the first openly (quite vocally) gay man to play the role.

And I stress, it shouldn't matter, but let's face it, it would have been commented on.

 

[The Wormhole]

Has Daniels been cast, I wonder how much would've been made of the fact that he's the first openly (quite vocally) gay man to play the role.

And I stress, it shouldn't matter, but let's face it, it would have been commented on.

Honestly, I can't see it being that much of an issue, outside of being a interesting fact to trivia buffs. Doctor Who has already had openly gay writers, producers and showrunners, not to mention companions have been played by openly gay actors, including one who got his own spin-off. Sure we might get a few articles about his casting mentioning it, just as we recently had it pointed out the franchise is going to have its first transgender actor this fall, but I can't see it being something people dwell on. At least no more than anyone dwells on the fact that RTD or John Barrowman are gay.

 

[Ithekro]

And of course Captain Jake is omnisexual.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Has Daniels been cast, I wonder how much would've been made of the fact that he's the first openly (quite vocally) gay man to play the role.

And I stress, it shouldn't matter, but let's face it, it would have been commented on.

Honestly, I can't see it being that much of an issue, outside of being a interesting fact to trivia buffs. Doctor Who has already had openly gay writers, producers and showrunners, not to mention companions have been played by openly gay actors, including one who got his own spin-off. Sure we might get a few articles about his casting mentioning it, just as we recently had it pointed out the franchise is going to have its first transgender actor this fall, but I can't see it being something people dwell on. At least no more than anyone dwells on the fact that RTD or John Barrowman are gay.

You're failing to realise how pathetic the British tabloid newspapers can be on occasion. Google 'Richard Littlejohn' for an example of their ingrained homophobia. A diminishing attitude, admittedly, but still there.

Conversely, I think the 'pink press' and gay rights activists would celebrate the fact that an openly gay man can play such an iconic role on a family TV show.

But I think we're agreed on the fact that it shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[NightJim]

The announcement of the third episode being about Gwen and Rhys, and more importantly post-Miracle Day finally has me intrigued about Torchwood. It made a lot of sense when it was announced. A great choice for the second reveal (actually it probably would have been a stronger first) but Torchwood by itself wasn't enough to grab me. Post-Miracle Day certainly is.