• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Big Finish get River Song (and lots more!)

I'm not sure how I feel about this cross-pollination of old and new. Sure we've all seen it coming in Big Finish from a long time ago, but I'm just uneasy about the concept of ''Past Doctors'' name-dropping concepts from the new series, because I've always looked at Big Finish at their best being little slices of Classic Who that never got made back in the day. Now it's all being turned into one bowl of soup that everything floats around in. It just feels like a seismic shift away from ''Missing Adventures'' to simply being modern Doctor Who featuring past incarnations of the Doctor. :shifty:
 
I'm not sure how I feel about this cross-pollination of old and new. Sure we've all seen it coming in Big Finish from a long time ago, but I'm just uneasy about the concept of ''Past Doctors'' name-dropping concepts from the new series, because I've always looked at Big Finish at their best being little slices of Classic Who that never got made back in the day. Now it's all being turned into one bowl of soup that everything floats around in. It just feels like a seismic shift away from ''Missing Adventures'' to simply being modern Doctor Who featuring past incarnations of the Doctor. :shifty:

I don't have a problem with that. After all, what we think of as "Classic Doctor Who" is actually quite a few very different shows. It started as an educational show about an alien teenager, her heroic science and history teachers, and her eccentric and mysterious grandfather wandering through time and space, but it became so many other things over the years. Anything that covers the full range from Hartnell through McCoy is already a "bowl of soup" with a wide range of very distinct ingredients. Doctor Who has been defined by change for a very long time now. Just because it was a series of incremental shifts rather than a seismic shift, that doesn't mean the changes were any less great.
 
Ime and Space is a big place, but most times we see something for the first time in modern Who, the Doctor has already seen it before. From sometime before the Time War, or as a distraction during the Time War.
 
Ime and Space is a big place, but most times we see something for the first time in modern Who, the Doctor has already seen it before.

Which is why those upcoming Big Finish things that pair classic Doctors with new-series monsters make sense to me. When we first met the Weeping Angels and the Judoon and the others, the Doctor already recognized them; these stories explain how he knew them. It's filling in a gap.
 
Those "Classic Doctors, New Monsters" are the ones I'm looking forward to the most for pretty much that reason. Given how Big Finish operate, I wouldn't be half surprised if they managed to pull off a typical Seventh Doctor story, that just so happens to star the Sycorax.
 
Hmm, I think you all make very good points. I admit that it could just be me -- not that I find New Who completely distasteful, but I've always kind of looked at Big Finish as being a sort of refuge into the past, if you like, tapping into a nostalgia for an earlier time. Seeing modern Who concepts introduced into that framework kind of smashes the glass ceiling for me. It's like, I'm now looking at Big Finish as being something different to what it was before. Like I say, probably just an adjustment I've gotta make...
 
Hmm, I think you all make very good points. I admit that it could just be me -- not that I find New Who completely distasteful, but I've always kind of looked at Big Finish as being a sort of refuge into the past, if you like, tapping into a nostalgia for an earlier time. Seeing modern Who concepts introduced into that framework kind of smashes the glass ceiling for me. It's like, I'm now looking at Big Finish as being something different to what it was before. Like I say, probably just an adjustment I've gotta make...

Except for a quirk in their Licence with the BBC they would always have been doing New Series material.

I certainly don't think you'll find Nick Briggs, who makes a steady income out of Cardiff, considering them two separate things.
 
Oh, I understand Nick Briggs doesn't consider them to be different things. That's not what I'm talking about. It's more a personal thing. The adjustment is with me as the listener, not with the production. I'm just not sure how I feel about that yet. :shrug:
 
Hmm, I think you all make very good points. I admit that it could just be me -- not that I find New Who completely distasteful, but I've always kind of looked at Big Finish as being a sort of refuge into the past, if you like, tapping into a nostalgia for an earlier time. Seeing modern Who concepts introduced into that framework kind of smashes the glass ceiling for me. It's like, I'm now looking at Big Finish as being something different to what it was before. Like I say, probably just an adjustment I've gotta make...

Classic series fans felt the same way about new incarnations of the Doctor vs. the ones they were used to. Today, we lump all those hugely different Doctors together under the same rubric and treat them as a single thing, which classic fans would've found bewildering. The Davison or McCoy era was no less different from the Hartnell or Pertwee era than the Tennant or Smith era is. If you were a new viewer and you saw "The Aztecs" followed by "Ghost Light," you'd have a hard time believing they were from the same franchise.

It's the same in Star Trek fandom. Every time a new Trek series came along -- the animated series, the movies, The Next Generation, etc. -- a fair-sized contingent of fans would dismiss it as not "real" Trek, too new and different and separate from the spirit of the Trek they knew. But then, later on, when the next new incarnation of Trek would come along, they'd treat all the past incarnations as a single consistent whole and defend it all in those terms, talking about the new version as if it were some unprecedented departure.

It's just the way the human mind works. We rewrite our memories every time we revisit them, shaping them into a smoother narrative. So all those different versions of a fictional franchise that came out years ago have had time to blend together in our memories and feel like a singular whole, while the newer stuff hasn't had time to get subsumed into the mass, so its differences stand out more in our minds. (Especially if we're latecomers who only discovered the classic stuff in retrospect and maybe saw it all within the span of a couple of years, and not necessarily in order, so that it all blends together even more.) The real difference isn't in the thing itself, just in our perception of it.
 
Absolutely right Christopher, that's where I am with it. Adjusting my ''perception''. ;)

It's like I said before, it isn't like we couldn't all see this coming from a long time ago..... and yeah, especially in recent years (although probably it began with ''School Reunion'' in Series 2), there has been significant franchise creep, making the lines drawn between newer and older material practically indistinguishable (certainly earlier seasons were more stark in drawing the line between the shows, but ''Time Crash'' and ''Day of the Doctor'' were practically the show opening it's arms and saying to all and sundry that it's all one big enjoyable mass that has run from 1963 to today).

Do we think there has been a shift in Big Finish from the Gary Russell days? It seems to me that Briggs is much more inclined towards this kind of thing, whereas GR seemed to be generally more nostalgic and backwards looking (not in a bad way, mind).
 
Do we think there has been a shift in Big Finish from the Gary Russell days? It seems to me that Briggs is much more inclined towards this kind of thing, whereas GR seemed to be generally more nostalgic and backwards looking (not in a bad way, mind).

Well today saw the publication of a 12th Doctor novel by Gary that not only features Benny but all of the supporting cast from her last few series (minus the Doctor's brother, understandably).

And according to the Author's Note it was Moffat's idea to have her in it.
 
To be fair, even as I was writing it I was remembering that Gary Russell was the guy who used to liberally include elements from everything in his novels. I reckon Gary would've included characters from the Sky Ray Ice Lollie wrappers if he thought he could get away with it. :D
 
It's like I said before, it isn't like we couldn't all see this coming from a long time ago..... and yeah, especially in recent years (although probably it began with ''School Reunion'' in Series 2), there has been significant franchise creep, making the lines drawn between newer and older material practically indistinguishable (certainly earlier seasons were more stark in drawing the line between the shows, but ''Time Crash'' and ''Day of the Doctor'' were practically the show opening it's arms and saying to all and sundry that it's all one big enjoyable mass that has run from 1963 to today).

I think that was always the intent. Naturally, when the revival series was new and its target audience was largely unfamiliar with Doctor Who, it was a good idea to keep the continuity references to a minimum so that people coming in fresh wouldn't be confused or scared off by a tonne of references to stories they hadn't seen. So the show started out from Rose's perspective and introduced us anew to the Doctor, revealing his world gradually -- which is just how it began with Ian and Barbara in 1963, and with Grace Holloway in 1996 (or would've been if the movie had had the sense to start in San Francisco rather than with the continuity-heavy opening that was bewildering as hell to new viewers). But once the audience had been hooked, and once the show had built up a mythology and history of its own, it started using more ideas from the old continuity, drawing on the whole history of the character and the world, though in a way that still served the new series and its storytelling. Although in the Moffat era, the continuity nods have gotten to be somewhat more for their own sake, rather more frequent and fanfictiony than in the RTD era.

You see similar things in other franchises. Star Trek: The Next Generation initially tried to divorce itself from TOS as much as possible ("The Naked Now" aside) and create its own original mythology for the 24th century; but as time went on, we got more and more stories drawing on the original series, with classic characters returning and TOS continuity being referenced more and more, until Enterprise's final season was pretty much one big exercise in setting up or explaining stuff from the larger Trek continuity. There's also Star Wars Rebels -- its first season focused on introducing the new main characters and their problems and backstories, and only gradually started making connections with the larger mythos, bringing in Lando Calrissian and Grand Moff Tarkin as recurring characters later in the season, then finally bringing in Darth Vader and The Clone Wars's Ahsoka Tano in the season finale. So it got one season to establish itself as its own thing before it got tied more closely into the larger whole.
 
And according to the Author's Note it was Moffat's idea to have her in it.

More accurately, Gary Russell asked Moffat permission to use River. Moffat said no and suggested Benny instead.

Moffat was right to deny Russell permission to use River. The first story with the twelfth Doctor and River is really the television series' to tell.

I wonder if Russell T. Davies' comments about River and twelve (a "sex storm," I think was his phrase) and Gary Russell's request planted enough of a bug in Moffat's ear that he settled on River as a guest star in the Christmas special.
 
Moffat was right to deny Russell permission to use River. The first story with the twelfth Doctor and River is really the television series' to tell.

To be fair to Gary I'm guessing that at the point he asked he, like most of, probably assumed she wasn't coming back.

(Funnily enough, it was also Moffat who suggest that BF do a series with her.)

I'm reading it now and it's, let us say, a typical Gary Russell novel, which will probably leave non Fans of the entire series and its spin-offs confused.
 
Do we think there has been a shift in Big Finish from the Gary Russell days? It seems to me that Briggs is much more inclined towards this kind of thing, whereas GR seemed to be generally more nostalgic and backwards looking (not in a bad way, mind).

Well today saw the publication of a 12th Doctor novel by Gary that not only features Benny but all of the supporting cast from her last few series (minus the Doctor's brother, understandably).

Whoa, just saw on the TARDIS wiki that Kari Pakhar is in it!? Gary, you're a crazy man sometimes.
 
Whoa, just saw on the TARDIS wiki that Kari Pakhar is in it!? Gary, you're a crazy man sometimes.

For a second, I thought that was Jason Kane's editor, among other things (*ahem*), from Beige Planet Mars. Different Pakhar. What a hilariously smutty book that was. :)
 
Whoa, just saw on the TARDIS wiki that Kari Pakhar is in it!?

One the the most obscure jokes in Doctor Who history. (Unless you're a cricket fan.)

Given that it's being read by Lisa Bowerman herself, I might also pick up the audiobook for this one.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top