Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

[indranee]

yeah, especially the way he avoided looking at her directly as he relented. believe me, I knew then.

 

[Trilliam]

If he approached Uhura himself, I would agree. She went to him. His reaction was to push aside their relationship amid that turmoil. What does he need from her? He needs everyone to continue to perform admirably. He puts aside her emotional nourishment.

Silly me. Here I was thinking that Uhuru knew him well enough to be reading Spock's distress from his body language.

Subsequent to the events of this film, I can certainly understand he will need the emotional sustenance from her. That doesn't explain their pre-existing relationship.

See Charlie X

I want enjoyable films that are able to draw casual viewers into the wider Star Trek works, while providing some great new moments for fans. I've said several times in several places that I think this is an enjoyable and entertaining film. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have issues.

 

[indranee]

what's the creative difference, in your opinion? a relationship -- especially if it can define a certain facet of his character and bring important elements of his existence to light -- is revealing aspects of his character.

With none of the background or context of the relationship, it reveals nothing about the character. Was it built on mutual respect based on her academic performance? Was it an attempt to develop a greater understanding of humanity? Did they have some particular event that brought them together? Was it her "talented tongue" and "oral sensitivity"? Is it a passionate relationship or one that is coldly logical?

Without knowing why they are together, without knowing how their relationship works, it reveals nothing about the nature of Spock - certainly not compared to what Kirk brings out of him.

Storytelling doesn't have to be chronological. Actually, it's more interesting, sometimes, when it isn't. We may get more of the backstory in the next film. But in this one I can already see that Spock is interested in her because of her "aural" not "oral" sensitivity and other intellectual abilities, and she in him because of his smarts, thoughtful demeanor, and the fact that he is very un-Kirk-like. She is demonstrating what a lot of viewers already understand about Spock's appeal, and about the boorish behavior that Kirk was exhibiting with his womanizing ways. I was saying, "you go, girl!"

As for what Kirk brings out in Spock, are you talking about the original timeline or this one? Because in the original, regular female characters weren't given the opportunity to participate in important storylines, something which I hope will change in this version.

So if it's about Uhura/Spock vs. Kirk/Spock, let's have that conversation, instead of one about whether his relationship with Uhura would violate Spock's Vulcan culture when, if that's the case, his relationship with anyone would.

wow, very smart post, seniorsleuth.

 

[donners22]

to donners22: from what we can tell, this movie DID draw casual viewers to Star Trek. or did you think there are over 100 mil Trekkies in this nation of ours?

It's not "our" nation, so I don't know. I'd be happier if new viewers find the wider body of Star Trek works than be drawn in to a single film (albeit one with potential sequels), though any success for the Star Trek name is welcome.

as for the "revelation"? it's why I asked the extent of your reading and your age. it may (or may not, depending on your maturity level) take some experience in life to see what the subtext was in that "favoritism" scene. if you didn't get it, I'm not the one to make you see it. it'll happen as time passes and you begin to see that a man and a woman do not often SAY what they feel out loud to each other. it's there, nevertheless.

Either I was not paying enough attention to that particular exchange or the acting in that particular scene did not work for me. Not having read spoilers, I was not actively expecting such a relationship nor looking for such.

 

[Nimthim]

to donners22: from what we can tell, this movie DID draw casual viewers to Star Trek. or did you think there are over 100 mil Trekkies in this nation of ours?

as for the "revelation"? it's why I asked the extent of your reading and your age. it may (or may not, depending on your maturity level) take some experience in life to see what the subtext was in that "favoritism" scene. if you didn't get it, I'm not the one to make you see it. it'll happen as time passes and you begin to see that a man and a woman do not often SAY what they feel out loud to each other. it's there, nevertheless.

Indranee, you think it also may have been easier for us 'chicks' to see - I think a few of the emotionally challenged men that I know would have trouble with the subtext in the assignment scene and also the turbolift scene (have explained such scenes on numerous occasions to the poor guys). I know the girls and I looked at each other with raised eyebrows after the assignment scene and remarked that it looked like there was a bit more to that than we knew about yet. It truly is NOT always about what is said.

 

[indranee]

Nimthim, yep, you may be right. absolutely. I hate it sometimes that men don't notice these things. it'd be easier in our real lives, would it not?

but I guess that's the way it is.

I am not sure, though, what gender the OP is. I just chalked it up to a lack of experience.

 

[DeerRaven]

Good points all but I hear Douglas.

I think the worry is that Spock's character will degrade into something that might as well be just another human being. What sets the Vulcans apart is their quiet dignity, their elegant intellect. There is a mystery about the culture; there has always been a mystery about Spock. Some things are better left untouched and this is one of them. Otherwise, a fine line will have to be tread to preserve the uniqueness of Spock and he is nothing if not unique in all the annals of science fiction. In the wrong hands, he will become a parody of himself. This is why Douglas, myself and others are concerned. We have great affection for Spock.

Speaking of which, I thought JJ Abrams produced a movie with great respect and vast affection for the series. I would be very pleased to see it continue long after I'm gone. I was in the fifth grade when it hit the airwaves.

 

[Amaris]

He had never so much as kissed Leila, and it was only under the influence of the spores that he did so. If people were held accountable for their actions when under mind-altering influences, then Vorik would have spent several years in Voyager's brig for attempted rape.

So as long as you're under the influence of a mind altering substance it's okay. I'll call the pub. There are going to be some happy people on the other end of that line once they hear this news.

I raised the question as one that can be considered. Is it a betrayal when he is expected to be married to another in a few years? What will that mean for his relationship with Uhura? What of T'Pring? Should she have the chance to choose another mate if Spock does not intend to go through with their relationship? Has she been told? These are all questions that, if we are to consider the canon as existing, will have some relevance to assessing the relationship.

Shall it? We don't yet know enough about this universe to make such far reaching assumptions. It seems you are carrying over prime universe canon into this new one.

If T'Pring is left expecting an arranged marriage, and Spock intends to pursue his relationship with Uhura, then that would be of dubious morality.

I disagree. Immorality is relative, particularly where cultural traditions pertain. You see, you're coming from it at the wrong angle. It's not a matter of morality, but legality. T'Pring and Spock are not married, and did not enter into this bonding willingly. Since there was no consentual bonding between the two specific parties, no contract was broken.

If he intends to leave Uhura to fulfil that marriage, then again it would be a questionable act.

Yet there is no such indication of that.
It is entirely supposition.

We are not given enough information of the canon's status in this regard - whether it happened at all, or whether something has happened subsequently to change it. Nor do we know of Vulcan customs in that regard. It seems to have negative implications, but it's hard to judge without knowing more.

I see no negative implications whatsoever beyond the decision not to enter into a contract neither party wants.

J.

 

[indranee]

Good points all but I hear Douglas.

I think the worry is that Spock's character will degrade into something that might as well be just another human being. What sets the Vulcans apart is their quiet dignity, their elegant intellect. There is a mystery about the culture; there has always been a mystery about Spock. Some things are better left untouched and this is one of them. Otherwise, a fine line will have to be tread to preserve the uniqueness of Spock and he is nothing if not unique in all the annals of science fiction. In the wrong hands, he will become a parody of himself. This is why Douglas, myself and others are concerned. We have great affection for Spock.

Speaking of which, I thought JJ Abrams produced a movie with great respect and vast affection for the series. I would be very pleased to see it continue long after I'm gone. I was in the fifth grade when it hit the airwaves.

who's Douglas?

 

[donners22]

Silly me. Here I was thinking that Uhuru knew him well enough to be reading Spock's distress from his body language.

I think having his planet blow up might create a reasonable assumption that he'd be distressed, regardless of body language.

See Charlie X

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

I suspect we'll be waiting a few years to find out, since I doubt novelists will try to come up with something and risk being totally contradicted by the next film...

 

[Amaris]

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

What brought Sarek and Amanda together?


J.

 

[indranee]

donners22, you know, you guys have to stop confusing the two timelines. none of that -- Charlie X, or T'Pring -- has been KNOWN to have happened in this timeline.

so please stop conflating the two. life'll be easier, I promise

 

[Crusher Disciple]

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

What brought Sarek and Amanda together?


J.

Is their meeting, courtship and marriage ever covered anywhere? Either the Prime time line or NuTrek?

 

[Amaris]

donners22, you know, you guys have to stop confusing the two timelines. none of that -- Charlie X, or T'Pring -- has been KNOWN to have happened in this timeline.

so please stop conflating the two. life'll be easier, I promise

Exactly. I mentioned earlier that he's mixing the two realities together, which will always result in contradiction and confusion.

J.

 

[Amaris]

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

What brought Sarek and Amanda together?


J.

Is their meeting, courtship and marriage ever covered anywhere? Either the Prime time line or NuTrek?

None of those, unfortunately. All Sarek tells us in "Journey to Babel" is that despite her emotions, marrying Amanda was the logical thing to do (which he also says in Trek XI).

J.

 

[donners22]

He had never so much as kissed Leila, and it was only under the influence of the spores that he did so. If people were held accountable for their actions when under mind-altering influences, then Vorik would have spent several years in Voyager's brig for attempted rape.

So as long as you're under the influence of a mind altering substance it's okay. I'll call the pub. There are going to be some happy people on the other end of that line once they hear this news.

If they are drunk to the point of being unable to distinguish between right and wrong, then they do not form the requisite mens rea and cannot be found guilty of a criminal offence - which I suspect would be regarded as more serious than a breach of trust.

Shall it? We don't yet know enough about this universe to make such far reaching assumptions. It seems you are carrying over prime universe canon into this new one.

That's one of the problems created by the writers trying to please those who do care about canon. If all the changes to the timeline relate directly to the impact of Nero, then much of canon is still in place.

I disagree. Immorality is relative, particularly where cultural traditions pertain. You see, you're coming from it at the wrong angle. It's not a matter of morality, but legality. T'Pring and Spock are not married, and did not enter into this bonding willingly. Since there was no consentual bonding between the two specific parties, no contract was broken.

No, but it depends on how highly Vulcans hold their traditions, and how much expectation is on Spock to uphold them.

Of course, it's more than likely that T'Pring was killed in the destruction of Vulcan. It's just a curious situation with existing canon potentially still in place, yet a changed situation for some characters.

 

[donners22]

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

What brought Sarek and Amanda together?


J.

Logic, through Sarek's position as ambassador to Earth, and love. That's not an in-depth explanation, but at least it is some indication of the basis. Do we know that Spock loves Uhura?

donners22, you know, you guys have to stop confusing the two timelines. none of that -- Charlie X, or T'Pring -- has been KNOWN to have happened in this timeline.

The writers have created this confusing situation. It is presented as an alternate timeline that branches off as a result of Nero. While Amok Time has not happened, the arranged marriage happened when Spock was a child - and presumably would not have been affected.

 

[Amaris]

If they are drunk to the point of being unable to distinguish between right and wrong, then they do not form the requisite mens rea and cannot be found guilty of a criminal offence - which I suspect would be regarded as more serious than a breach of trust.

Are you certain you wish to stand by that? That's like saying "I know I had sex with those three women but I was wasted so it doesn't count!"

Think about it. Is that logical? Or wise?

That's one of the problems created by the writers trying to please those who do care about canon. If all the changes to the timeline relate directly to the impact of Nero, then much of canon is still in place.

It's an alternate reality. We know little about it.
Anything else other than what we have seen onscreen is pure speculation unsupported by anything resembling concrete evidence.

No, but it depends on how highly Vulcans hold their traditions, and how much expectation is on Spock to uphold them.

It seems Sarek is highly lauded by the Vulcan community.

Of course, it's more than likely that T'Pring was killed in the destruction of Vulcan. It's just a curious situation with existing canon potentially still in place, yet a changed situation for some characters.

Which indicates nothing verifiable. You made a moral statement about a situation in which you did not know the details. It, like your initial statement and follow up statements, is unverifiable.

J.

 

[indranee]

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

What brought Sarek and Amanda together?


J.

Logic, through Sarek's position as ambassador to Earth, and love. That's not an in-depth explanation, but at least it is some indication of the basis. Do we know that Spock loves Uhura?

donners22, you know, you guys have to stop confusing the two timelines. none of that -- Charlie X, or T'Pring -- has been KNOWN to have happened in this timeline.

The writers have created this confusing situation. It is presented as an alternate timeline that branches off as a result of Nero. While Amok Time has not happened, the arranged marriage happened when Spock was a child - and presumably would not have been affected.

unless T'Pring is dead. or already cheating on Spock with Stonn.

wrap your head around that!

awright, awright, I'm going, I'm going. time to do the laundry!

 

[Misfit Toy]

While Amok Time has not happened, the arranged marriage happened when Spock was a child - and presumably would not have been affected.

Here's a presumption:

The destruction of the Kelvin had far reaching impact. T'Pring's father paused on his way home to view a holo-vid of the news report regarding the battle. Because of that pause, later, when 'getting busy' with his spouse, a different sperm scores with the egg, resulting in a different T'Pring, who does not become engaged to Spock.

There. All sorted out?