• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

If they are drunk to the point of being unable to distinguish between right and wrong, then they do not form the requisite mens rea and cannot be found guilty of a criminal offence - which I suspect would be regarded as more serious than a breach of trust.

Are you certain you wish to stand by that? That's like saying "I know I had sex with those three women but I was wasted so it doesn't count!"

Think about it. Is that logical? Or wise?

Which part? The legality of the morality? The former I am quite sure of, the latter is subjective (and for me, no I would not regard that as acceptable at all).

As I said, Vorik did far worse than Spock and suffered no consequences.


Which indicates nothing verifiable. You made a moral statement about a situation in which you did not know the details. It, like your initial statement and follow up statements, is unverifiable.

I supposed based on canon (which may or may not be in place). The details with which we have been provided leave that as a potential interpretation of the situation. It is simply a point to consider, which is more interesting than not thinking about a situation for two years or whenever we are presented with more information.
 
Which part? The legality of the morality? The former I am quite sure of, the latter is subjective (and for me, no I would not regard that as acceptable at all).

As I said, Vorik did far worse than Spock and suffered no consequences.

You have based this thread on a moral, not legal, basis. I have opened up the possibility of a legal avenue and stand by it. In your case, you made a moral assessment withoutevidence to support it. Which means we are now running around in circles in this thread.

I supposed based on canon (which may or may not be in place). The details with which we have been provided leave that as a potential interpretation of the situation. It is simply a point to consider, which is more interesting than not thinking about a situation for two years or whenever we are presented with more information.

Once more (as this has been stated ad nauseum elsewhere), this is a different universe. Canon does not exist here aside from what we now see on screen. It is very clear cut. Hell, it's explained right in the movie.

J.
 
Good points all but I hear Douglas.

I think the worry is that Spock's character will degrade into something that might as well be just another human being. What sets the Vulcans apart is their quiet dignity, their elegant intellect. There is a mystery about the culture; there has always been a mystery about Spock. Some things are better left untouched and this is one of them. Otherwise, a fine line will have to be tread to preserve the uniqueness of Spock and he is nothing if not unique in all the annals of science fiction. In the wrong hands, he will become a parody of himself. This is why Douglas, myself and others are concerned. We have great affection for Spock.

Speaking of which, I thought JJ Abrams produced a movie with great respect and vast affection for the series. I would be very pleased to see it continue long after I'm gone. I was in the fifth grade when it hit the airwaves.

I think that this is a worry with some of the people who object to the romance, but not the motivation for others. I also hope that Spock doesn't lose his Vulcanness completely but, based on the film, I am not worried about it at this juncture. It seems to me that the whole reason Uhura responded to Spock rather than Kirk was this quiet dignity you speak of. He may lose that dignity under duress, but it should never go away permanently.
 
The movie explains that Nero has created an alternate universe. That their lives from that point will be different. It does not explain what effect it would have on a young Spock. Assuming that events that happened to him as a child remained the same is not unreasonable.
 
The movie explains that Nero has created an alternate universe. That their lives from that point will be different. It does not explain what effect it would have on a young Spock. Assuming that events that happened to him as a child remained the same is not unreasonable.

At this point, nothing off screen is certain.
And with that I withdraw from discussion, simply because I'm tired of going in circles in a thread that is chasing it's own tail. I may comment later, but point to point debate is fruitless.


J.
 
Silly me. Here I was thinking that Uhuru knew him well enough to be reading Spock's distress from his body language.

I think having his planet blow up might create a reasonable assumption that he'd be distressed, regardless of body language.


See Charlie X

That's her interest in him. What was his interest in her?

There is certainly a reason for them to stay together now after the traumatic events, but what brought them together in the first place?

I suspect we'll be waiting a few years to find out, since I doubt novelists will try to come up with something and risk being totally contradicted by the next film...


I always "read" those scenes in Charlie X as being a subtle 2 way flirt. Then again, I've always been a hopeless romantic.
 
4Indranee, you think it also may have been easier for us 'chicks' to see - I think a few of the emotionally challenged men that I know would have trouble with the subtext in the assignment scene and also the turbolift scene (have explained such scenes on numerous occasions to the poor guys). I know the girls and I looked at each other with raised eyebrows after the assignment scene and remarked that it looked like there was a bit more to that than we knew about yet. It truly is NOT always about what is said.

I'm a 48 year old male and had no problem picking up that subtext. I even extrapolated a possible explanation of it on my own in which Spock might have been exhibitng a protective instinct by knowing that the assignement of Enterprise was more dangerous than Farragut's, and that Uhura was supposed to have been assigned Enterprise and she just asserted herself for what was rightfully hers. (Run on sentence alert)
 
it reveals that he is in pain, he is dependent on emotional sustenance, perhaps for the first time in his life. his conversation with Sarek proved the reason for the revelation of THIS relationship -- "I feel anger."

it proves that he is "not himself", as in he is NOT SPOCK PRIME -- the one Spock we do know. it proves that this is a brand Nu Spock. get to know him or not, he is there.

it's more for us than for any character in the movie. it's for the audience -- Trekkies or non-Trekkies.

there've been some things Zach Quinto said that are pertinent to our basic understanding of his Spock. he once said -- "We visit [Spock] at a time when he's not as in control of his balance, and there's a lot of heartbreak in that."

that quote, and this one -- "Uhura is Spock's emotional canvas".

those are two quotes to remember.

if you cannot see the differences in the two timelines, in the two Spocks, in the two situations at all -- it will be very hard for you to see character growth in THIS story. I suggest you sit down and assess what it is exactly you want to see in future Trek. if you cannot leave behind that which has already passed, NuTrek might not be your cup of tea.

And don't forget the two Sareks. The new Sarek admits to Spock that he married for love. That's startling in itself. It practically gives Spock permission to engage his emotions.

The original Sarek never made that admission. Clearly the death of Amanda and the destruction of Vulcan also had a profound, and yes emotional, affect on Sarek.

Sarek is the forgotten one in this discussion of Spock and emotion. Obviously the events of this movie have a dramatic impact on the Vulcans we know. Kudos to the writers for achieving exactly what they sought to. I think it's brilliant. Again, plot holes and tech be damned. It's all about the characters and their relationships. Great stuff!
 
Last edited:
4Indranee, you think it also may have been easier for us 'chicks' to see - I think a few of the emotionally challenged men that I know would have trouble with the subtext in the assignment scene and also the turbolift scene (have explained such scenes on numerous occasions to the poor guys). I know the girls and I looked at each other with raised eyebrows after the assignment scene and remarked that it looked like there was a bit more to that than we knew about yet. It truly is NOT always about what is said.

I'm a 48 year old male and had no problem picking up that subtext. I even extrapolated a possible explanation of it on my own in which Spock might have been exhibitng a protective instinct by knowing that the assignement of Enterprise was more dangerous than Farragut's, and that Uhura was supposed to have been assigned Enterprise and she just asserted herself for what was rightfully hers. (Run on sentence alert)

I knew at least one of you guys was going to jump down our throats for this generalization :p

I agree, btw. hence, I sort of ascribed it to experience, or lack thereof.
 
it reveals that he is in pain, he is dependent on emotional sustenance, perhaps for the first time in his life. his conversation with Sarek proved the reason for the revelation of THIS relationship -- "I feel anger."

it proves that he is "not himself", as in he is NOT SPOCK PRIME -- the one Spock we do know. it proves that this is a brand Nu Spock. get to know him or not, he is there.

it's more for us than for any character in the movie. it's for the audience -- Trekkies or non-Trekkies.

there've been some things Zach Quinto said that are pertinent to our basic understanding of his Spock. he once said -- "We visit [Spock] at a time when he's not as in control of his balance, and there's a lot of heartbreak in that."

that quote, and this one -- "Uhura is Spock's emotional canvas".

those are two quotes to remember.

if you cannot see the differences in the two timelines, in the two Spocks, in the two situations at all -- it will be very hard for you to see character growth in THIS story. I suggest you sit down and assess what it is exactly you want to see in future Trek. if you cannot leave behind that which has already passed, NuTrek might not be your cup of tea.

And don't forget the two Sareks. The new Sarek admits to Spock that he married for love. That's startling in itself. It practically gives Spock permission to engage his emotions.

The original Sarek never made that admission. Clearly the death of Amanda and the destruction of Vulcan also had a profound, and yes emotional, affect on Sarek.

Sarek is the forgotten one in this discussion of Spock and emotion. Obviously the events of this movie have a dramatic impact on the Vulcans we know. Kudos to the writers for achieving exactly what they sought to. I think it's brilliant. Again, plot holes a tech be damned. It's all about the characters and their relationships. Great stuff!

it's Trek alright! :):adore:

Sarek did admit it, but 'twas too little too late. and to the wrong person (Picard).

I agree about Sarek. he's integral to NuSpock's development as a character. so are Uhura, McCoy, Amanda (even in death) and Kirk.

I feel so very excited to watch these beloved characters of mine take shape... take their initial baby steps. what was old is new again and I am so loving this journey! I don't care so much what happens in the end... I want to see how we get there! everything, everyone is connected. nothing will fall by the wayside. I have faith in these writers and in JJ.
 
Sarek did admit it, but 'twas too little too late. and to the wrong person (Picard).

Oh yes, one hundred or so years later. A dramatic difference for sure. Also taking that hundred years was for Spock to find out how Sarek truly felt about him when he melded with Picard in one of TNG's best ever scenes.

I feel so very excited to watch these beloved characters of mine take shape... take their initial baby steps. what was old is new again and I am so loving this journey! I don't care so much what happens in the end... I want to see how we get there! everything, everyone is connected. nothing will fall by the wayside. I have faith in these writers and in JJ.

Me too! Haven't had so much fun watching and discussing Trek since TMP 30 years ago! Even my non-Trekkie friends and family can't wait to talk Trek with me. This is great! These writers get it. "What was old is new again" indeed!. Never dreamed it possible, let alone this damn good!
 
Sarek did admit it, but 'twas too little too late. and to the wrong person (Picard).

Oh yes, one hundred or so years later. A dramatic difference for sure. Also taking that hundred years was for Spock to find out how Sarek truly felt about him when he melded with Picard in one of TNG's best ever scenes.

I feel so very excited to watch these beloved characters of mine take shape... take their initial baby steps. what was old is new again and I am so loving this journey! I don't care so much what happens in the end... I want to see how we get there! everything, everyone is connected. nothing will fall by the wayside. I have faith in these writers and in JJ.
Me too! Haven't had so much fun watching and discussing Trek since TMP 30 years ago! Even my non-Trekkie friends and family can't wait to talk Trek with me. This is great! These writers get it. "What was old is new again" indeed!. Never dreamed it possible, let alone this damn good!

same here! I think Crusher Disciple said the same thing earlier today. :cool:
 
Sarek did admit it, but 'twas too little too late. and to the wrong person (Picard).

Oh yes, one hundred or so years later. A dramatic difference for sure. Also taking that hundred years was for Spock to find out how Sarek truly felt about him when he melded with Picard in one of TNG's best ever scenes.

I feel so very excited to watch these beloved characters of mine take shape... take their initial baby steps. what was old is new again and I am so loving this journey! I don't care so much what happens in the end... I want to see how we get there! everything, everyone is connected. nothing will fall by the wayside. I have faith in these writers and in JJ.
Me too! Haven't had so much fun watching and discussing Trek since TMP 30 years ago! Even my non-Trekkie friends and family can't wait to talk Trek with me. This is great! These writers get it. "What was old is new again" indeed!. Never dreamed it possible, let alone this damn good!

same here! I think Crusher Disciple said the same thing earlier today. :cool:

She did.
You seconded.
I thirded.
I'm supposing Bobatiel is a fourthed. :D

J.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top