Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

[SGx]

If you think a fictional planet seen maybe half a dozen times and some cultural trivia that I've never heard even after watching Star Trek on-and-off for years is the "foundation" of the franchise, then maybe Star Trek is just no longer for you.

I have to respond that I am really out of it when it comes to posting and the fan community, but if you have never heard of the "cultural trivia" I cited about Vulcan, then you really haven't watched Star Trek. I even wonder if you "get it" beyond the special effects and flashiness. I suggest you watch TOS first, which is enough to understand Vulcan culture.

You make about the best case possible for why this reboot was absolutely necessary. No one is going to want to get into a show when other alleged fans will look down their noses at them for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of 40 years worth of obscure trivia about a fictional culture.

Word.

I do think there's a lot to be said for the fact that in this film the crew are all a lot younger, out on their first voyage, and Spock in particular is very conflicted. He's half-human, and 'emotionally compromised', a very clear reason for letting his Vulcan manners slip.

 

[the Sisko]

I don't see it that way. We saw in the Spock/Sarek scene, Spock getting his father's approval way before he would ever get any supportive words in the series. That has a major effect on who he is... where TOS spock spent his time trying to out-Vulcan Vulcans, as Worf out Klingon Klingons, the ST09 Spock is in a different place with his emotions and self. He lost his mother and planet and the first support he got was in Uhura's arms. This, in a human relationship is no small deal. What is fundamental to a pre-Kolinar Spock at this point. I would argue (and scream) it is not logic. If it were, regulation 619 would not have been in place. If it were, he wouldn't be filled with Rage and having his dad admit that he married Amanda because of love.

Next, we have to understand the scenario not in our trek universe where of course they will go over, shoot a few romulans and blow stuff up before dinnertime. This is their life we are watching and for all intents and purposes, the world has come to an end. Noone (in Spocks mind) has step foot on the Narada and come back. Nero killed the Kelvin captain, probably killed Pike, destroyed the ship, destroyed the 7 starfleet ships (and not ships of strangers either), destroyed the 47 Warbirds, threw a black hole into Vulcan and will probably throw a black hole into Earth within the hour.

He was saying his goodbye for good, just as Robau and Pike did before him.

The movie did something very fundamental in changing who these characters are. Kirk is a talented rebel who Pike is honing into a deadly weapon. Spock will never be the Spock of TOS or the first 5 movies. I've been discussing this at length (off Trekbbs). I think Spock always dated Uhura but in the TOS timeline, he ended up breaking it off and finding a Vulcan wife in his efforts to fit in and earn his father's approval. This may sound crazy but it happens in real life all the time. He leaves starfleet to pursue Kolinar in TMP. He nurtures Vulcan cadets and young officers in ST2 and ST6 in a way that shows how strongly his loyalty is to the Vulcan way.

Rewind to the end of this movie and he has his fathers acceptance of his emotion, he has older Spock's support of him embracing his human half in the midst of a holocaust and rather than supress his emotions with logic, he controls them with the help of a loving girlfriend.

Its internally consistent but the characters are forever changed.

As to the hipness... Star Trek came out in the 1960s. It had space hippies on it. It dealt with war and race. It had women in boots and miniskirts (at that point a sign of liberation rather than a sign of sexualization). Star Trek was a very hip show of its era. Yes it had long intellectual conversations but it also had bunny rabbits. We can't stay in the 60s version of storytelling and vision of the future and expect a generation who read about the sixties in history class or learned about it from their grandparents.

Batman Begins (and the Dark Knight) made batman a less morally upright character than the one we knew. "I'm not going to kill you, but I don't have to save you either"

Battlestar Galactica... changed genders of the lead, changed the genre of the show from family oriented sitcom to dark drama and made our heroes morally neutral characters at best.

 

[indranee]

no, I wanna know how many times he has seen the movie. if it's anything less than five times, then I win by the sheer preponderance of MY anecdotal evidence.

if it's more than five times then... well, then... JJ wins.

HAH!

 

[donners22]

and Amok Time may never happen in THIS timeline. poor you

plus, as you said, if Amok Time hasn't happened YET... he's not betraying her.

HAH!

Well, the marriage is still arranged, so it depends on your morality I suppose.

btw, nobody, NOBODY in my theater laughed at the kiss. and I've seen it five times.

care to provide some proof?

What, do you want me to bring a tape recorder into the next screening?

I think that is more of an indicator of how cynical our culture has become.

If my birth country was just wiped off the planet... oh yeah and my Mom just died... I'd expect and would receive a moment of compassion and affection from my wife.

Uhura did not rip her shirt off and thrust her chest into Spock's face.

The two characters shared a tender moment.

GAWD! facepalm?

No, I'd take it as an indicator that the scene, if not the relationship, is just silly. Perhaps it was particularly poor timing to reveal it then. Then again, at least she didn't breathlessly say, "I'll be monitoring your frequency." Boy, there's a line for the ages. That's another one that got laughs...

 

[indranee]

no, I want to know how many times you have seen it.

oh, and who says Spock has had his marriage arranged in this timeline? I never heard any thing to that effect in the movie.

 

[Amaris]

He's also betraying his arranged wife, since Amok Time hasn't happened yet...

I think the telling issue is that at my two screenings, people laughed when Uhura kissed Spock, just moments after the destruction of Vulcan. If it can completely take people out of what is meant to be an emotional moment, it has not worked.

and Amok Time may never happen in THIS timeline. poor you

plus, as you said, if Amok Time hasn't happened YET... he's not betraying her.

HAH!

btw, nobody, NOBODY in my theater laughed at the kiss. and I've seen it five times.

care to provide some proof?

Not only that, both times I have went to see this movie, at the kiss people expressed surprise but the room was quiet and no one laughed. People chuckled when Spock said he had no comment on the matter.

J.

 

[indranee]

right. oh, and Leila Kalomi?

original timeline.

TOS-Spock -- already an asshat.

PS. don't get me wrong. I love Spock. all of them

but you get my point.

 

[donners22]

no, I want to know how many times you have seen it.

oh, and who says Spock has had his marriage arranged in this timeline? I never heard any thing to that effect in the movie.

Then perhaps you can read what I wrote, and you would have your answer.

There is no reason the Narada's effect would have anything to do with Spock's arranged marriage, so I cannot see how that would have any impact on it. Then again, there's no reason it would have an impact on stardates either, so I guess it may just be another thing we are expected to forget...

 

[Trilliam]

He's also betraying his arranged wife, since Amok Time hasn't happened yet...

I think the telling issue is that at my two screenings, people laughed when Uhura kissed Spock, just moments after the destruction of Vulcan. If it can completely take people out of what is meant to be an emotional moment, it has not worked.

Must have been sessions full of 13 year olds then? That would be about the only age group that would laugh at "mushy stuff".


No one laughed at this scene in either of the 2 sessions I've been to.

 

[indranee]

1) the Narada had an effect on Vulcan, did it not? there's this little fact that T'Pring might not be alive.

2) that aside, Leila Kalomi. look her up.

 

[Nimthim]

and Amok Time may never happen in THIS timeline. poor you

plus, as you said, if Amok Time hasn't happened YET... he's not betraying her.

HAH!

Well, the marriage is still arranged, so it depends on your morality I suppose.

btw, nobody, NOBODY in my theater laughed at the kiss. and I've seen it five times.

care to provide some proof?

What, do you want me to bring a tape recorder into the next screening?

I think that is more of an indicator of how cynical our culture has become.

If my birth country was just wiped off the planet... oh yeah and my Mom just died... I'd expect and would receive a moment of compassion and affection from my wife.

Uhura did not rip her shirt off and thrust her chest into Spock's face.

The two characters shared a tender moment.

GAWD! facepalm?

No, I'd take it as an indicator that the scene, if not the relationship, is just silly. Perhaps it was particularly poor timing to reveal it then. Then again, at least she didn't breathlessly say, "I'll be monitoring your frequency." Boy, there's a line for the ages. That's another one that got laughs...

If you're discussing the scene in the turbolift, no one laughed while I was watching. If you are discussing the transporter room scene, then there was mild humorous response to Kirk and Scotty's reactions, and to Spock cutting off Kirk's question - very different than saying they were laughing at the kiss and interaction between Uhura and Spock.

 

[seniorsleuth]

He's also betraying his arranged wife, since Amok Time hasn't happened yet...

I think the telling issue is that at my two screenings, people laughed when Uhura kissed Spock, just moments after the destruction of Vulcan. If it can completely take people out of what is meant to be an emotional moment, it has not worked.

and Amok Time may never happen in THIS timeline. poor you

plus, as you said, if Amok Time hasn't happened YET... he's not betraying her.

HAH!

btw, nobody, NOBODY in my theater laughed at the kiss. and I've seen it five times.

care to provide some proof?

Not only that, both times I have went to see this movie, at the kiss people expressed surprise but the room was quiet and no one laughed. People chuckled when Spock said he had no comment on the matter.

J.

That's right. I didn't hear anyone laugh when Uhura and Spock kissed on the transporter pad. But maybe people laughed because they thought the look on Kirk's face was funny. I think that's what we were supposed to think. I kinda chuckled to myself about that, but in no way did I think the affection between Uhura and Spock was silly.

 

[donners22]

He's also betraying his arranged wife, since Amok Time hasn't happened yet...

I think the telling issue is that at my two screenings, people laughed when Uhura kissed Spock, just moments after the destruction of Vulcan. If it can completely take people out of what is meant to be an emotional moment, it has not worked.

Must have been sessions full of 13 year olds then? That would be about the only age group that would laugh at "mushy stuff".


No one laughed at this scene in either of the 2 sessions I've been to.

Nope, not one kid at the first screening I went to, and just two at the second.

If you're discussing the scene in the turbolift, no one laughed while I was watching. If you are discussing the transporter room scene, then there was mild humorous response to Kirk and Scotty's reactions, and to Spock cutting off Kirk's question - very different than saying they were laughing at the kiss and interaction between Uhura and Spock.

Both scenes. It's funny, because there's a couple of dramatic scenes which were later undermined. At least this time Scotty didn't make a quip...

 

[Amaris]

That's right. I didn't hear anyone laugh when Uhura and Spock kissed on the transporter pad. But maybe people laughed because they thought the look on Kirk's face was funny. I think that's what we were supposed to think. I kinda chuckled to myself about that, but in no way did I think the affection between Uhura and Spock was silly.

Exactly. I'm thinking that's what happened if it happened at all.

Nope, not one kid at the first screening I went to, and just two at the second.

Then perhaps they were merely childish in intellect. Not one screening that I have attended has anyone laughing during either the turbolift scene or the transporter scene, and we did have kids in our audience both times. It would seem your audience can't handle adult subject matter. You might want to find a different theater.

J.

 

[donners22]

Then perhaps they were merely childish in intellect. Not one screening that I have attended has anyone laughing during either the turbolift scene or the transporter scene, and we did have kids in our audience both times. It would seem your audience can't handle adult subject matter. You might want to find a different theater.

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss. It was not the best time to reveal the relationship.

 

[SonicRanger]

Spock's character as revealed during the movie is not Vulcan in his behavior, which is just not consistent with who Spock and Vulcans have developed into over the course of the many shows and movies. Vulcans never - repeat NEVER - display affection in public...

Can someone PLEASE tell me my people feel the need/right to complain about elements of the film taken right from TOS?

Let's take an "emotionally compromised" Spock in This Side of Paradise.

He was making out in the field while on the phone with Kirk with a human ex-girlfriend...

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x24/thisideofparadise_225.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x24/thisideofparadise_234.jpg

... and they held hands in front of Kirk too...

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x24/thisideofparadise_271.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x24/thisideofparadise_274.jpg

... and later kissed again publicly while on the horn to Kirk:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x24/thisideofparadise_414.jpg

We could also talk about All Our Yesterdays if you like:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x23/allouryesterdays_568.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x23/allouryesterdays_535.jpg

Oh, and if you have a problem with Vulcan bullies, take it up with D.C. Fontana, who wrote a few more episodes of TOS and TAS than you.

 

[Amaris]

Then perhaps they were merely childish in intellect. Not one screening that I have attended has anyone laughing during either the turbolift scene or the transporter scene, and we did have kids in our audience both times. It would seem your audience can't handle adult subject matter. You might want to find a different theater.

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss.

Indeed, and yet your "adults" did. In terms of anecdote, it seems the preponderance of evidence is not in your favor.

J.

 

[donners22]

I thought the Vulcan bullies came straight out of Yesteryear.

 

[donners22]

Then perhaps they were merely childish in intellect. Not one screening that I have attended has anyone laughing during either the turbolift scene or the transporter scene, and we did have kids in our audience both times. It would seem your audience can't handle adult subject matter. You might want to find a different theater.

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss.

Indeed, and yet your "adults" did. In terms of anecdote, it seems the preponderance of evidence is not in your favor.

J.

Ah, but presumably they did not laugh at the kiss itself, but at the inapt timing of the scene, or at least the revelation of the relationship.

 

[SonicRanger]

I thought the Vulcan bullies came straight out of Yesteryear.

Yes, but they were mentioned by Amanda in "Journey to Babel" too -- both written by D.C. Fontana.