Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

[JoeZhang]

so I guess it may just be another thing we are expected to forget...

or rightly just remember that most of the audience will not know or care. I do know but simply don't care.

 

[indranee]

Then perhaps they were merely childish in intellect. Not one screening that I have attended has anyone laughing during either the turbolift scene or the transporter scene, and we did have kids in our audience both times. It would seem your audience can't handle adult subject matter. You might want to find a different theater.

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss. It was not the best time to reveal the relationship.

how old are you and what kind of reading do you do?

a traumatic event is precisely the time to jack up "information" about other compartments in a character's life. it's what constitutes "character growth".

 

[Crusher Disciple]

What is the point of Spock being half-Vulcan, if he doesn't get to experience what it is to be half-human part of the time. If he acted like a full Vulcan all the time, there's no real point to having him be a hybrid whatsoever.

And that's one problem I've had with Spock's character over the years. One thing I really love about this Spock is that even before Vulcan was destroyed, he managed to try to explore his human side. I mean, he had a love affair with a human woman who he obviously cares for.

 

[SGx]

What I liked was that the Spock/Uhura thing wasn't a big deal. It wasn't a major part of the plot, or even really a secondary plot. It was just there, it was something that was happening in the background.

If there had been some huge romantic substory, it would have ruined the whole film for me.

 

[indranee]

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss.

Indeed, and yet your "adults" did. In terms of anecdote, it seems the preponderance of evidence is not in your favor.

J.

Ah, but presumably they did not laugh at the kiss itself, but at the inapt timing of the scene, or at least the revelation of the relationship.

how do you know this? did you talk to each and every one of them? or are you just pulling this out of your nether regions?

 

[Amaris]

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss.

Indeed, and yet your "adults" did. In terms of anecdote, it seems the preponderance of evidence is not in your favor.

J.

Ah, but presumably they did not laugh at the kiss itself, but at the inapt timing of the scene, or at least the revelation of the relationship.

Again, the preponderance of anecdotal evidence is not in your favor. Your anecdote is far outmatched. I find it highly unlikely that your adult group (with no children) laughed at that scene while our adult groups (many or all with children) did not do the same. Our locations are wide and varied with samples from many different people. The evidence weighs heavily against you.

J.

 

[donners22]

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss. It was not the best time to reveal the relationship.

how old are you and what kind of reading do you do?

a traumatic event is precisely the time to jack up "information" about other compartments in a character's life. it's what constitutes "character growth".

It may be the time to reveal aspects of a character. Spock's subsequent emotional breakdown did that well (though of course it had to be turned to comedy a few seconds later by Scotty). It may not be the time to reveal a pre-existing relationship which may surprise some viewers, and perhaps provoke a sceptical reaction.

 

[indranee]

What is the point of Spock being half-Vulcan, if he doesn't get to experience what it is to be half-human part of the time. If he acted like a full Vulcan all the time, there's no real point to having him be a hybrid whatsoever.

And that's one problem I've had with Spock's character over the years. One thing I really love about this Spock is that even before Vulcan was destroyed, he managed to try to explore his human side. I mean, he had a love affair with a human woman who he obviously cares for.

exactly. and presumably -- according to donners22 -- that particular love affair in the original timeline didn't make him betray T'Pring.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

It's been years since I saw that TOS episode, but wasn't that more or less an arraigned mating? And not of love but out of tradition and necessity?

 

[indranee]

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss. It was not the best time to reveal the relationship.

how old are you and what kind of reading do you do?

a traumatic event is precisely the time to jack up "information" about other compartments in a character's life. it's what constitutes "character growth".

It may be the time to reveal aspects of a character. Spock's subsequent emotional breakdown did that well (though of course it had to be turned to comedy a few seconds later by Scotty). It may not be the time to reveal a pre-existing relationship which may surprise some viewers, and perhaps provoke a sceptical reaction.

what's the creative difference, in your opinion? a relationship -- especially if it can define a certain facet of his character and bring important elements of his existence to light -- is revealing aspects of his character.

 

[donners22]

Again, the preponderance of anecdotal evidence is not in your favor. Your anecdote is far outmatched. I find it highly unlikely that your adult group (with no children) laughed at that scene while our adult groups (many or all with children) did not do the same. Our locations are wide and varied with samples from many different people. The evidence weighs heavily against you.

J.

I know what I heard. No amount of anecdotal evidence changes that. I know my own reaction to the scene. The perspective of others does not change that.

I am not even all that bothered by the scene. If I were, I would have made a thread about it myself much sooner.

I find it quite amusing to see the reactions once an aspect of the film is questioned. It ranges from the high-handed (questioning the age and experience of the writer, with the classic rolleyes thrown in) to outright denial and disbelief.

 

[Amaris]

It's been years since I saw that TOS episode, but wasn't that more or less an arraigned mating? And not of love but out of tradition and necessity?

Yes, purely out of tradition and necessity. It makes one wonder why the practice still exists, as Sarek himself found Amanda after his failed coupling with the Vulcan Princess.


J.

 

[donners22]

exactly. and presumably -- according to donners22 -- that particular love affair in the original timeline didn't make him betray T'Pring.

Didn't say that at all. I said it was a question of morality whether an arranged marriage is betrayed by another relationship before the marriage itself actually takes place. Not knowing much of arranged marriages, nor of the Vulcan customs, I cannot judge that.

 

[indranee]

It's been years since I saw that TOS episode, but wasn't that more or less an arraigned mating? And not of love but out of tradition and necessity?

from what I could tell, it's almost like something we had back in the olden days in India. around the time kids were five, they were "married" to each other by their families. then they went their own ways, growing up with their respective families until puberty struck. then they were married formally and the girl moved to her husband's family to live there.

that's not my problem with the OP. according to the OP, Spock is betraying T'Pring IN THIS TIMELINE by having a relationship with Uhura.

not only is the OP completely confused (like many other "haters") about the two timelines, he/she is choosing to blithely ignore Leila Kalomi's relationship with Spock in the original timeline, making Spock Prime a "betrayer" as well.

as the Church Lady used to say: how conveniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiient!

 

[Aragorn]

For some reason, I'm reminded of the post that said if Gary Mitchell wasn't in the movie then it would ruin everything.

 

[indranee]

Again, the preponderance of anecdotal evidence is not in your favor. Your anecdote is far outmatched. I find it highly unlikely that your adult group (with no children) laughed at that scene while our adult groups (many or all with children) did not do the same. Our locations are wide and varied with samples from many different people. The evidence weighs heavily against you.

J.

I know what I heard. No amount of anecdotal evidence changes that. I know my own reaction to the scene. The perspective of others does not change that.

I am not even all that bothered by the scene. If I were, I would have made a thread about it myself much sooner.

I find it quite amusing to see the reactions once an aspect of the film is questioned. It ranges from the high-handed (questioning the age and experience of the writer, with the classic rolleyes thrown in) to outright denial and disbelief.

huh? if you're not bothered by that scene much, why are you spending so much time in this thread talking to us?

 

[Amaris]

It's been years since I saw that TOS episode, but wasn't that more or less an arraigned mating? And not of love but out of tradition and necessity?

from what I could tell, it's almost like something we had back in the olden days in India. around the time kids were five, they were "married" to each other by their families. then they went their own ways, growing up with their respective families until puberty struck. then they were married formally and the girl moved to her husband's family to live there.

that's not my problem with the OP. according to the OP, Spock is betraying T'Pring IN THIS TIMELINE by having a relationship with Uhura.

not only is the OP completely confused (like many other "haters") about the two timelines, he/she is choosing to blithely ignore Leila Kalomi's relationship with Spock in the original timeline, making Spock Prime a "betrayer" as well.

as the Church Lady used to say: how conveniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiient!

I see it more as "quick, find another bad aspect of his character no matter how far fetched!" in an attempt to dirty up Spock's reputation in this movie. I mean seriously, "immoral"? Donner, how much Star Trek have you watched?

J.

 

[indranee]

exactly. and presumably -- according to donners22 -- that particular love affair in the original timeline didn't make him betray T'Pring.

Didn't say that at all. I said it was a question of morality whether an arranged marriage is betrayed by another relationship before the marriage itself actually takes place. Not knowing much of arranged marriages, nor of the Vulcan customs, I cannot judge that.

sounds to me as if you were doing precisely that -- judging NuSpock for doing something Spock Prime did in the original timeline anyway.

I think you just forgot about This Side of Paradise and are trying to cover for yourself.

 

[donners22]

how old are you and what kind of reading do you do?

a traumatic event is precisely the time to jack up "information" about other compartments in a character's life. it's what constitutes "character growth".

It may be the time to reveal aspects of a character. Spock's subsequent emotional breakdown did that well (though of course it had to be turned to comedy a few seconds later by Scotty). It may not be the time to reveal a pre-existing relationship which may surprise some viewers, and perhaps provoke a sceptical reaction.

what's the creative difference, in your opinion? a relationship -- especially if it can define a certain facet of his character and bring important elements of his existence to light -- is revealing aspects of his character.

With none of the background or context of the relationship, it reveals nothing about the character. Was it built on mutual respect based on her academic performance? Was it an attempt to develop a greater understanding of humanity? Did they have some particular event that brought them together? Was it her "talented tongue" and "oral sensitivity"? Is it a passionate relationship or one that is coldly logical?

Without knowing why they are together, without knowing how their relationship works, it reveals nothing about the nature of Spock - certainly not compared to what Kirk brings out of him.

 

[Amaris]

Again, the preponderance of anecdotal evidence is not in your favor. Your anecdote is far outmatched. I find it highly unlikely that your adult group (with no children) laughed at that scene while our adult groups (many or all with children) did not do the same. Our locations are wide and varied with samples from many different people. The evidence weighs heavily against you.

J.

I know what I heard.

As do I. As do the others present.

No amount of anecdotal evidence changes that.

And yet you insisted on making the statement as if it mattered. I think what happened was that you found no one else agreeing with your perceived silliness of the scene.

I know my own reaction to the scene. The perspective of others does not change that.

And yours should? You made a blanket statement based on your anecdotal evidence. We presented ours.

I am not even all that bothered by the scene. If I were, I would have made a thread about it myself much sooner.

The relative time of the thread changes nothing, whether now or two years from now. It is a non-sequitur.

I find it quite amusing to see the reactions once an aspect of the film is questioned. It ranges from the high-handed (questioning the age and experience of the writer, with the classic rolleyes thrown in) to outright denial and disbelief.

I'm not denying what you saw, I'm rebutting your assessment.

J.