Betrayed by a kiss? *Movie Spoiler alert*

[donners22]

exactly. and presumably -- according to donners22 -- that particular love affair in the original timeline didn't make him betray T'Pring.

Didn't say that at all. I said it was a question of morality whether an arranged marriage is betrayed by another relationship before the marriage itself actually takes place. Not knowing much of arranged marriages, nor of the Vulcan customs, I cannot judge that.

sounds to me as if you were doing precisely that -- judging NuSpock for doing something Spock Prime did in the original timeline anyway.

I think you just forgot about This Side of Paradise and are trying to cover for yourself.

No, it looks like for the second time you are imagining comments that are not there. I have not made any issue out of a preceived betrayal aside from an offhand one-line note. I said that it would be a question of morality whether it would be considered wrong.

My issue was the placement of the scene, and the need for the relationship in the film.

 

[donners22]

I see it more as "quick, find another bad aspect of his character no matter how far fetched!" in an attempt to dirty up Spock's reputation in this movie. I mean seriously, "immoral"? Donner, how much Star Trek have you watched?

J.

Plenty,thanks.

I said it was a question of morality, not that I personally thought it was immoral. I don't think anyone in this thread has said that.

Since Vulcans are a fictional culture, since arranged marriages are not something familiar to me, I do not know what the morality of the situation would be to those characters.

 

[Sector 7]

Or perhaps they simply found it ridiculous. I don't think adults would laugh merely at a kiss. It was not the best time to reveal the relationship.

a traumatic event is precisely the time to jack up "information" about other compartments in a character's life. it's what constitutes "character growth".

It may be the time to reveal aspects of a character. Spock's subsequent emotional breakdown did that well (though of course it had to be turned to comedy a few seconds later by Scotty). It may not be the time to reveal a pre-existing relationship which may surprise some viewers, and perhaps provoke a sceptical reaction.

The relationship was revealed back at the Academy. It is the reason Spock assigned her to the Farragut against her request. Spock did not want to appear to show favoritism.

It's been years since I saw that TOS episode, but wasn't that more or less an arraigned mating? And not of love but out of tradition and necessity?

These days arranged marriages are not acceptable to most who would view this film, including me. It makes sense that it would not be used in 2009.

(I highlighted the portion to which I responded.)

 

[donners22]

The relationship was revealed back at the Academy. It is the reason Spock assigned her to the Farragut against her request. Spock did not want to appear to show favoritism.

Favouritism and romance are not necessarily linked. She could well have been his favourite student, with a particularly strong mentor relationship that was known to others. There was no indication of a romantic relationship.

 

[indranee]

It may be the time to reveal aspects of a character. Spock's subsequent emotional breakdown did that well (though of course it had to be turned to comedy a few seconds later by Scotty). It may not be the time to reveal a pre-existing relationship which may surprise some viewers, and perhaps provoke a sceptical reaction.

what's the creative difference, in your opinion? a relationship -- especially if it can define a certain facet of his character and bring important elements of his existence to light -- is revealing aspects of his character.

With none of the background or context of the relationship, it reveals nothing about the character. Was it built on mutual respect based on her academic performance? Was it an attempt to develop a greater understanding of humanity? Did they have some particular event that brought them together? Was it her "talented tongue" and "oral sensitivity"? Is it a passionate relationship or one that is coldly logical?

Without knowing why they are together, without knowing how their relationship works, it reveals nothing about the nature of Spock - certainly not compared to what Kirk brings out of him.

of course it reveals something! jesus!

it reveals that he is in pain, he is dependent on emotional sustenance, perhaps for the first time in his life. his conversation with Sarek proved the reason for the revelation of THIS relationship -- "I feel anger."

it proves that he is "not himself", as in he is NOT SPOCK PRIME -- the one Spock we do know. it proves that this is a brand Nu Spock. get to know him or not, he is there.

it's more for us than for any character in the movie. it's for the audience -- Trekkies or non-Trekkies.

there've been some things Zach Quinto said that are pertinent to our basic understanding of his Spock. he once said -- "We visit [Spock] at a time when he's not as in control of his balance, and there's a lot of heartbreak in that."

that quote, and this one -- "Uhura is Spock's emotional canvas".

those are two quotes to remember.

if you cannot see the differences in the two timelines, in the two Spocks, in the two situations at all -- it will be very hard for you to see character growth in THIS story. I suggest you sit down and assess what it is exactly you want to see in future Trek. if you cannot leave behind that which has already passed, NuTrek might not be your cup of tea.

 

[indranee]

Didn't say that at all. I said it was a question of morality whether an arranged marriage is betrayed by another relationship before the marriage itself actually takes place. Not knowing much of arranged marriages, nor of the Vulcan customs, I cannot judge that.

sounds to me as if you were doing precisely that -- judging NuSpock for doing something Spock Prime did in the original timeline anyway.

I think you just forgot about This Side of Paradise and are trying to cover for yourself.

No, it looks like for the second time you are imagining comments that are not there. I have not made any issue out of a preceived betrayal aside from an offhand one-line note. I said that it would be a question of morality whether it would be considered wrong.

My issue was the placement of the scene, and the need for the relationship in the film.

dude, you were the one who cast aspersions on NuSpock's (and perhaps other posters' in this thread) "morality".

and I am not the only one who noticed it.

we're not idiots.

 

[Amaris]

I see it more as "quick, find another bad aspect of his character no matter how far fetched!" in an attempt to dirty up Spock's reputation in this movie. I mean seriously, "immoral"? Donner, how much Star Trek have you watched?

J.

Plenty,thanks.

And yet you seemed unaware of Prime Spock's previous transgression in "This Side of Paradise", or at least you found it less immoral since you didn't bring it up by comparison, and it would definitely stand out. Some may also feel a tangible relationship building in "Charlie X" between Spock and Uhura.

I said it was a question of morality, not that I personally thought it was immoral. I don't think anyone in this thread has said that.

So you raised the point of a question no one asked about a subject no one here was concerned about all to say that you don't find it immoral even though no one was saying it was immoral in the first place.

Since Vulcans are a fictional culture, since arranged marriages are not something familiar to me, I do not know what the morality of the situation would be to those characters.

Yet you chose to comment upon the situation in a negative light without fully understanding the dynamics behind it.

Fascinating.

J.

 

[donners22]

of course it reveals something! jesus!

it reveals that he is in pain, he is dependent on emotional sustenance, perhaps for the first time in his life. his conversation with Sarek proved the reason for the revelation of THIS relationship -- "I feel anger."

If he approached Uhura himself, I would agree. She went to him. His reaction was to push aside their relationship amid that turmoil. What does he need from her? He needs everyone to continue to perform admirably. He puts aside her emotional nourishment.

it proves that he is "not himself", as in he is NOT SPOCK PRIME -- the one Spock we do know. it proves that this is a brand Nu Spock. get to know him or not, he is there.

it's more for us than for any character in the movie. it's for the audience -- Trekkies or non-Trekkies.

if you cannot see the differences in the two timelines, in the two Spocks, in the two situations at all -- it will be very hard for you to see character growth in THIS story.

Yet while there are reasons given for the changes to Kirk, it's less clear why Spock was different before the destruction of Vulcan. What did he need from his relationship with Uhura? Why were they together?

Subsequent to the events of this film, I can certainly understand he will need the emotional sustenance from her. That doesn't explain their pre-existing relationship.

I suggest you sit down and assess what it is exactly you want to see in future Trek. if you cannot leave behind that which has already passed, NuTrek might not be your cup of tea.

I want enjoyable films that are able to draw casual viewers into the wider Star Trek works, while providing some great new moments for fans. I've said several times in several places that I think this is an enjoyable and entertaining film. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have issues.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Yes, purely out of tradition and necessity. It makes one wonder why the practice still exists, as Sarek himself found Amanda after his failed coupling with the Vulcan Princess.
J.

Ah, so Sarek changed his and Spock's future by flaunting tradition. And I'm assuming everyone on Vulcan thought his marriage to Amanda was just a political marriage. That makes his confession that he married for love all the more important to Spock's embracing his human side.

Even Vulcans can marry for love sometimes.

from what I could tell, it's almost like something we had back in the olden days in India. around the time kids were five, they were "married" to each other by their families. then they went their own ways, growing up with their respective families until puberty struck. then they were married formally and the girl moved to her husband's family to live there.

Then Spock's choice to refuse the Science Academy for Starfleet means he was possibly turning his back on even more of Vulcan traditions--despite his "shortcoming." God, I hated that line.

I wonder if they were still betrothed? Wonder if he was planning on sowing his wild oats and possibly going back to mate with her? Wonder if she even managed to survive the destruction of Vulcan?

Either way, that would be a great follow up during the sequels.

 

[indranee]

to donners22: from what we can tell, this movie DID draw casual viewers to Star Trek. or did you think there are over 100 mil Trekkies in this nation of ours?

as for the "revelation"? it's why I asked the extent of your reading and your age. it may (or may not, depending on your maturity level) take some experience in life to see what the subtext was in that "favoritism" scene. if you didn't get it, I'm not the one to make you see it. it'll happen as time passes and you begin to see that a man and a woman do not often SAY what they feel out loud to each other. it's there, nevertheless.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Aw, man- I haven't had this much fun talking Trek in years!

I love this movie!!!!

 

[indranee]

Yes, purely out of tradition and necessity. It makes one wonder why the practice still exists, as Sarek himself found Amanda after his failed coupling with the Vulcan Princess.
J.

Ah, so Sarek changed his and Spock's future by flaunting tradition. And I'm assuming everyone on Vulcan thought his marriage to Amanda was just a political marriage. That makes his confession that he married for love all the more important to Spock's embracing his human side.

Even Vulcans can marry for love sometimes.

from what I could tell, it's almost like something we had back in the olden days in India. around the time kids were five, they were "married" to each other by their families. then they went their own ways, growing up with their respective families until puberty struck. then they were married formally and the girl moved to her husband's family to live there.

Then Spock's choice to refuse the Science Academy for Starfleet means he was possibly turning his back on even more of Vulcan traditions--despite his "shortcoming." God, I hated that line.

I wonder if they were still betrothed? Wonder if he was planning on sowing his wild oats and possibly going back to mate with her? Wonder if she even managed to survive the destruction of Vulcan?

Either way, that would be a great follow up during the sequels.

yeah, done well, it would be interesting!

 

[indranee]

Aw, man- I haven't had this much fun talking Trek in years!

I love this movie!!!!

me too!!!

there's so much in it, isn't there?!

 

[Amaris]

Yes, purely out of tradition and necessity. It makes one wonder why the practice still exists, as Sarek himself found Amanda after his failed coupling with the Vulcan Princess.
J.

Ah, so Sarek changed his and Spock's future by flaunting tradition. And I'm assuming everyone on Vulcan thought his marriage to Amanda was just a political marriage. That makes his confession that he married for love all the more important to Spock's embracing his human side.

Even Vulcans can marry for love sometimes.

Exactly.

You know, it may not be canon but check out the book "Sarek" by A.C. Crispin. One of my personal favorites and just an all around great story.

Aw, man- I haven't had this much fun talking Trek in years!

I love this movie!!!!

Aw, man- I haven't had this much fun talking Trek in years!

I love this movie!!!!

me too!!!

there's so much in it, isn't there?!

Thirded!

J.

 

[indranee]

Yes, purely out of tradition and necessity. It makes one wonder why the practice still exists, as Sarek himself found Amanda after his failed coupling with the Vulcan Princess.
J.

Ah, so Sarek changed his and Spock's future by flaunting tradition. And I'm assuming everyone on Vulcan thought his marriage to Amanda was just a political marriage. That makes his confession that he married for love all the more important to Spock's embracing his human side.

Even Vulcans can marry for love sometimes.

Exactly.

You know, it may not be canon but check out the book "Sarek" by A.C. Crispin. One of my personal favorites and just an all around great story.

Aw, man- I haven't had this much fun talking Trek in years!

I love this movie!!!!

Thirded!

J.

I second that! ahh... A. C. Crispin and her Yesterday's Son -- one of my favorites!

 

[Sector 7]

The relationship was revealed back at the Academy. It is the reason Spock assigned her to the Farragut against her request. Spock did not want to appear to show favoritism.

Favouritism and romance are not necessarily linked. She could well have been his favourite student, with a particularly strong mentor relationship that was known to others. There was no indication of a romantic relationship.

You should watch that scene again. Uhura's facial expressions and attitude say they were NOT mere student/instructor issues.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

The relationship was revealed back at the Academy. It is the reason Spock assigned her to the Farragut against her request. Spock did not want to appear to show favoritism.

Favouritism and romance are not necessarily linked. She could well have been his favourite student, with a particularly strong mentor relationship that was known to others. There was no indication of a romantic relationship.

You should watch that scene again. Uhura's facial expressions and attitude say they were NOT mere student/instructor issues.

Oh, I knew right off the bat they were having a romantic relationship during that scene.

 

[donners22]

And yet you seemed unaware of Prime Spock's previous transgression in "This Side of Paradise", or at least you found it less immoral since you didn't bring it up by comparison, and it would definitely stand out. Some may also feel a tangible relationship building in "Charlie X" between Spock and Uhura.

He had never so much as kissed Leila, and it was only under the influence of the spores that he did so. If people were held accountable for their actions when under mind-altering influences, then Vorik would have spent several years in Voyager's brig for attempted rape.

So you raised the point of a question no one asked about a subject no one here was concerned about all to say that you don't find it immoral even though no one was saying it was immoral in the first place.

I raised the question as one that can be considered. Is it a betrayal when he is expected to be married to another in a few years? What will that mean for his relationship with Uhura? What of T'Pring? Should she have the chance to choose another mate if Spock does not intend to go through with their relationship? Has she been told? These are all questions that, if we are to consider the canon as existing, will have some relevance to assessing the relationship.

Yet you chose to comment upon the situation in a negative light without fully understanding the dynamics behind it.

Fascinating.

If T'Pring is left expecting an arranged marriage, and Spock intends to pursue his relationship with Uhura, then that would be of dubious morality. If he intends to leave Uhura to fulfil that marriage, then again it would be a questionable act. We are not given enough information of the canon's status in this regard - whether it happened at all, or whether something has happened subsequently to change it. Nor do we know of Vulcan customs in that regard. It seems to have negative implications, but it's hard to judge without knowing more.

 

[Amaris]

I second that! ahh... A. C. Crispin and her Yesterday's Son -- one of my favorites!

Oh, me too!

You should watch that scene again. Uhura's facial expressions and attitude say they were NOT mere student/instructor issues.

When I first saw that scene, my curiosity was piqued. I chalked it up to Instructor/Student, but I did get the feeling there was more in the "favoritism" remark than I was picking up.

J.

 

[seniorsleuth]

It may be the time to reveal aspects of a character. Spock's subsequent emotional breakdown did that well (though of course it had to be turned to comedy a few seconds later by Scotty). It may not be the time to reveal a pre-existing relationship which may surprise some viewers, and perhaps provoke a sceptical reaction.

what's the creative difference, in your opinion? a relationship -- especially if it can define a certain facet of his character and bring important elements of his existence to light -- is revealing aspects of his character.

With none of the background or context of the relationship, it reveals nothing about the character. Was it built on mutual respect based on her academic performance? Was it an attempt to develop a greater understanding of humanity? Did they have some particular event that brought them together? Was it her "talented tongue" and "oral sensitivity"? Is it a passionate relationship or one that is coldly logical?

Without knowing why they are together, without knowing how their relationship works, it reveals nothing about the nature of Spock - certainly not compared to what Kirk brings out of him.

Storytelling doesn't have to be chronological. Actually, it's more interesting, sometimes, when it isn't. We may get more of the backstory in the next film. But in this one I can already see that Spock is interested in her because of her "aural" not "oral" sensitivity and other intellectual abilities, and she in him because of his smarts, thoughtful demeanor, and the fact that he is very un-Kirk-like. She is demonstrating what a lot of viewers already understand about Spock's appeal, and about the boorish behavior that Kirk was exhibiting with his womanizing ways. I was saying, "you go, girl!"

As for what Kirk brings out in Spock, are you talking about the original timeline or this one? Because in the original, regular female characters weren't given the opportunity to participate in important storylines, something which I hope will change in this version.

So if it's about Uhura/Spock vs. Kirk/Spock, let's have that conversation, instead of one about whether his relationship with Uhura would violate Spock's Vulcan culture when, if that's the case, his relationship with anyone would.