Berman and Braga Were Sexist

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Four Lights, Jan 24, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Four Lights

    Four Lights Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2016
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    I'm working my way through the second part of "The Fifty Year Mission" behind the scenes books at the moment. I'm must be about 75% through it now.

    A couple of things have jumped out at me about the behaviour of these two as I read it though.
    First, Berman was supposed to have been a real sleaze ball when it came to the treatment of Terry Farrell. According to her, he would go on constantly about how her breasts weren't big enough, and how she should do something about it, and how his secretary was a good example to follow as she had huge breasts. She even had to have fittings to get larger bras, and that was all done at his behest.

    Then, I read later on how he and Braga were supposed to have had this name for Seven of Nine. Apparently they called the character "perineum" which if you look it up it is the area between the anus and the scrotum. I mean, what does it tell you about where these two were coming from in the development of this character if they had a name like that for her?

    I was never much of a fan of either of them, even before I read any of this. My opinion of them now though has gone even lower. :barf:
     
  2. Balok's Decoy

    Balok's Decoy Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    Location:
    Balok's Decoy in Baltimore, MD
    I can't remember what exactly he said, but I remember Rick Berman saying something really sexist in his interview for the Chaos on the Bridge documentary. IIRC it had something to do with Denise Crosby and Marina Sirtis.

    I like a lot of the work they did on Star Trek. Doesn't make them good people irl though.
     
  3. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Location:
    spot261
    So they were sleazebags who managed to make a show about equality convincing.

    GR taught them well.
     
    DS9forever, Firebird, Tosk and 2 others like this.
  4. Armus

    Armus Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I read that and I couldn't believe it. :eek: He shouldn't have cast her if that was his priority in female actresses.
     
    Four Lights likes this.
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Escaped from Trumpistan
    I have no love for Berman and Braga, but I'd take anything in The Fifty-Year Mission with a huge grain of salt. They reprinted many inaccuracies about TOS.
     
  6. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Not really sexist, but playing off rape as a jokey subject completely turned me off Enterprise and Trek for quite a while.

    I think they were just a pair of people who could play the showbiz political game well like many producers, execs, writers etc in LA.
     
  7. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    And Hollywood overall isn't?

    It was the culture(and still is) that as a woman you've got to be attractive and yes you have to sleep with the producers/directors/lead actors to get ahead.

    Is it degrading? Yes. Wrong? Arguably so. A fact of life? Yes.
     
  8. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    That book certainly casts Berman in a negative and quite sexist light, but not really Braga so much. Indeed, Braga does some good work with female characters, Kate Mulgrew even singled him out as the one writer on Voyager's staff who wrote the best Janeway material.
    "Them?" Roddenberry never spent any time with Braga. By the time Braga started working on TNG, Roddenberry was basically a figurehead who just visited the set to chat with the actors.
    Oh yeah, I noticed they printed the story that it was because NBC didn't want a woman with authority that Number One wasn't brought back after The Cage, even though it is a well known fact they were okay with a female second in command, they just didn't want her played by an actress Roddenberry was sleeping with.

    That being said, some of the more damning evidence against Berman in that book comes from quotes he actually gave in interviews specifically for that book, including one where he gives his opinion on women. It doesn't reflect well on him at all.
     
  9. Idran

    Idran Commodore Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2011
    Not even mentioning what I think about what you're hopefully-unintentionally implying about Farrell and Ryan here, who cares if it's a "fact of life" or not? That means nothing at all for whether or not it deserves calling out. Just because something is institutional doesn't make it more acceptable. It's no justification whatsoever, it's no better than an excuse for not talking about it.
     
    Balok's Decoy likes this.
  10. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2013
    Location:
    spot261
    It wasn't really intended as anything other than mildly ironic
     
    Balok's Decoy likes this.
  11. Tracy Trek

    Tracy Trek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Location:
    Terra, Sol 3
    Isn't it true than many times female characters are considered by how they look?

    I think I read an article once that Marina Sirtis was constantly pressured about weight. To make sure she always looked good in those skin tight/plunging neckline costumes. I think one of the best ideas they had was to start having her wear a regular uniform.
     
  12. 1001001

    1001001 Pull Up a Groove and Get Fabulous! Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Location:
    Danny Street
    It doesn't have to be a "fact of life". Accepting it as such perpetuates it. I am sure there are many successful women in Hollywood who did not just accept it as a fact of life.

    Trading a job for sex is vulgar and wrong on many levels. And what kind of man could enjoy a sexual encounter knowing the woman doesn't really want to be with you, and is probably at this point disgusted by you?

    I hadn't heard these stories about Berman. That's a shame.
     
    BillJ and Balok's Decoy like this.
  13. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2016
    Location:
    Mississauga
    It doesn't have to be. There's a whole Christian film industry that, to my knowledge, doesn't do this.

    You want contrast? There was a movie made about 9 years ago starring Kirk Cameron, called Fireproof. It was about a married couple who fall in love again and develop a deep relationship with God. In the scene where Cameron's character Caleb is supposed to kiss his wife Catherine, they actually dressed Cameron's wife in the other actress (Erin Bethea)'s costume and had them do the kissing scene together instead. They filmed it from a different angle in low sunlight so you couldn't tell the difference. (http://www.today.com/popculture/kirk-cameron-ill-only-kiss-my-wife-2D80555063)

    Now that's love and devotion. :)
     
    Prax and Jedman67 like this.
  14. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    About half of the practice of modern western society are vulgar, immoral and repulsive.

    How many prostitutes are repulsed by their clients?

    And whose to say a particularly cynical woman wouldn't at least pretend she enjoyed it if it got her the lead role?

    Is it wrong? Of course. How do you solve it? Either draconian morality law or some sort of universal surveillance. IMO
     
  15. Balok's Decoy

    Balok's Decoy Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    Location:
    Balok's Decoy in Baltimore, MD
    Comparing actresses who are coerced into sex by their employers to prostitutes is disgusting. I don't think there's anything wrong with being a sex worker, but an actress being coerced or manipulated into sex by an employer who wields power over her is in no way, shape, or form the same thing. At all.
     
    Jedman67 and Spot261 like this.
  16. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    Jeri was brought on for T&A she was a talented actress and Voyager improved because of her talent and dedication.

    Their exists a perception that sci fi fans being overwhelmingly male and 18-30 have quite a lot of frustrated sexual lust any producer would see that as something to exploit.
     
  17. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    Have you ever heard prostitute used as a verb? If you have then what actresses are asked to do fall under that category.

    Believe me this is despicable behavior I am not condoning it but acknowledging its pervasiveness.

    You don't change the world with a lot of unbridled emotion and righteous anger. You have to look at objectively first.
     
  18. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    Oh and I've said its wrong at least three times now.
     
  19. Balok's Decoy

    Balok's Decoy Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2016
    Location:
    Balok's Decoy in Baltimore, MD
    Sex through coercion or manipulation is rape. Prostitution is a consensual exchange of sex for payment. They're really not the same in this example.
     
  20. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2016
    Location:
    In a sub-sub atomic universe with kittens
    Child prostitution? Kidnapping and sexual slavery?

    So your totally cool with transactional sex, so long as the bill is payed?

    If a man kidnaps your daughter and has her work in a prostitution wring where she gets payed the standard for prostitutes is that coercion? She is getting money for her services?

    You need to reflect on your own morality.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.