Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS*****

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

wizkid said:
And Worf uses their devices but doesn't follow up? Sounds like a book waiting to be released. Worf brings down Section 31, one fist at a time...

It's not clear that Worf really understood what he had encountered. He seemed to think that he was dealing with a legitimate team from Starfleet Intelligence -- his internal monologue's reference to what's-his-name as "Starfleet Intelligence's real senior officer on Qo'noS" comes to mind. He probably harboured suspicions of just who he had dealt with after the fact, but there's no evidence that he's aware of Section 31, knows the name, or has ever heard of them before.

Which is actually pretty interesting -- even though he was Captain Sisko's highest-ranking Starfleet subordinate on DS9, Sisko apparently never let Worf in on Section 31's existence after Bashir revealed it to him, though he did let Bajoran Militia officers Kira and Odo in on their existence.

 

[Enterpriserules]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Worf could be the Chuck Norris of the 24th century!

 

[David Mack]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ With that ponytail of his? More like the Steven Seagal.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ Well, they have comparable ranges of facial expressions, anyway.

 

[Scott Pearson]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

David Mack said:
^ With that ponytail of his? More like the Steven Seagal.

The young Seagal that could still lift his legs above waist level . . .

 

[wizkid]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

But everyone believes that Section 31 could be kept secret from the FNS over a period of 100 years? Come on. It can't be just that easy, can it??

 

[Trent Roman]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^ One other factor to consider is their level of activity. During peace-time, when there are no major threats to the Federation (which an intrepid crew does not encounter and solve within the space of a book, that is), one would imagine 31 lies low and concentrates on resource-building, maybe R&D'ing spy toys. When the Dominion War came about, 31 not only felt the need to become more active, they would also find more individuals in Starfleet and the Federation who were sympathetic to their jingoist 'philosophy' of anything-in-defense-of-the-Federation, allowing them to act with greater impunity.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

wizkid said:
But everyone believes that Section 31 could be kept secret from the FNS over a period of 100 years? Come on. It can't be just that easy, can it??

At least 223 years, actually, between approximately 2151 (launch of the NX-01 by United Earth) and 2174, when they attempted to recruit Julian Bashir.

It's the sort of thing that would be very difficult to hide, but not impossible. Certainly, it's probable that various operations of theirs have leaked, but they consistently seem to be able to hide their oganization's existence through the use of fall guys. I suspect that they're aided in their quest to keep their existence secret by mainstream Federation political culture -- the Federation is such an open and transparent society that the idea of a secret organization like Thirty-One could exist just seems absurd on its face.

Another thing to consider, of course, might be -- and this interpretation of the Federation may be seen as opposing the interpretation I posited above -- that Starfleet's history of extremism -- the events of Vanguard: Reap the Whirlwind, for instance, or the various Evil Admirals' plots -- may be so well-known that when a Thirty-One operation leaks, it's commonly attributed to Starfleet.

Another thing to consider is what Elias Vaughn says about them in Section 31: Abyss: Their first goal, no matter what, has always been to protect the secrecy of their oganization. And they will no doubt use lethal countermeasures against anyone who seeks to expose them.

And on top of that, I don't think Section 31 acts all that often. They're probably very judicious in when they choose to ask, and I imagine that decades can go by without them undertaking any major operations carrying risk of exposure -- which might, after all, aid their ability to recruit, since no one can point to anything they've been known to do as being "bad."

The numerous crises of the late 24th Century seem to leave Section 31 unusually active.

Spoiler: The Good That Men Do

No doubt this is part of what leads to their being exposed by the time of the early 25th Century.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:
And on top of that, I don't think Section 31 acts all that often. They're probably very judicious in when they choose to ask, and I imagine that decades can go by without them undertaking any major operations carrying risk of exposure -- which might, after all, aid their ability to recruit, since no one can point to anything they've been known to do as being "bad."

The numerous crises of the late 24th Century seem to leave Section 31 unusually active.

That's always been my interpretation. The flaw with most fictional "huge conspiracy" stories is that the bigger and more pervasive the conspiracy is, the more downright ludicrous it becomes that it could be kept secret in a society with a free press. Bringing in more people, more resources, more lines of communication causes the potential opportunities for failure and exposure to multiply exponentially.

So the only way Section 31 could function and endure is if it kept its activities to a bare minimum and involved as few people as possible. They probably don't do much of anything during times of relative peace; I don't think it's a coincidence that we never saw them until the Dominion threat was in full swing (and the Borg threat and renewed Romulan threat had been known for some years).

 

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:

Sci said:
And on top of that, I don't think Section 31 acts all that often. They're probably very judicious in when they choose to ask, and I imagine that decades can go by without them undertaking any major operations carrying risk of exposure -- which might, after all, aid their ability to recruit, since no one can point to anything they've been known to do as being "bad."

The numerous crises of the late 24th Century seem to leave Section 31 unusually active.

That's always been my interpretation. The flaw with most fictional "huge conspiracy" stories is that the bigger and more pervasive the conspiracy is, the more downright ludicrous it becomes that it could be kept secret in a society with a free press. Bringing in more people, more resources, more lines of communication causes the potential opportunities for failure and exposure to multiply exponentially.

So the only way Section 31 could function and endure is if it kept its activities to a bare minimum and involved as few people as possible. They probably don't do much of anything during times of relative peace; I don't think it's a coincidence that we never saw them until the Dominion threat was in full swing (and the Borg threat and renewed Romulan threat had been known for some years).

Yep.

I mean, even then, it's a bit unrealistic, I'll grant -- but no more so, I would argue, than the idea of, say, a fuctioning democracy that lacks political parties (sorry, KRAD ) or of a society that lacks money.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

^^And a democracy with political parties is functional? Read a newspaper lately?

 

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Christopher said:
^^And a democracy with political parties is functional?

Better than in so-called democracies without competitive political parties. I mean, I suppose if United Russia is your thing, that's cool, but....

 

[Scott Pearson]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:

Christopher said:
^^And a democracy with political parties is functional?

Better than in so-called democracies without competitive political parties. I mean, I suppose if United Russia is your thing, that's cool, but....

Even without organized competitive parties, you're still going to have competitive ideas expressed by individual candidates; it's a bit of a leap to imply that a free state without organized parties has to be the same as Russia with its past as, well, not a free state.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Don't jump to the conclusion that a partisan democracy is the only kind of democracy. There's not one word about political parties in the US Constitution; it defines a system wherein individuals elect individuals. A lot of the Founders thought that political parties would be a bad thing to have and should be discouraged.

Of course, realistically there's no way in a free society to prevent people from choosing to organize into parties if that's their wish. But the political system is not actually designed to be based on parties; it's just that the parties have co-opted the process so thoroughly that they've created the illusion that partisan bickering is what politics is all about. Elected leaders are supposed to represent all of their constituents, regardless of party affiliation. When they place their partisan agendas first, that's a corruption of the process. Parties do not make democracy happen; as often as not, they do the opposite.

Well, at least they do when there are only two monolithic parties dominating and polarizing the nation so that nothing gets done in the face of endless political fighting. That kind of system serves the parties more than it serves the people. A system with a larger number of smaller parties, forming shifting coalitions on various issues as needed, would be more representative of the people and would probably be a better system overall.

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

on the subject of the book...

i'm 270-odd pages in and loving it. are Kadohata and Leybenzon's actions completely off-kilter with Q&A? I dunno, we're seeing them in different circumstances here to what they were in there and obviously they're acting differently than they might.

i *love* 'Never shoot Worf. Never even try. You'll just make him angry.'

Stephens is funny too.

 

[Sci]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

captcalhoun said:
on the subject of the book...

What the hell would you want to talk about the book for!?

Christopher - I'd love to get into that debate another time, but I suspect we may have dragged the thread too far off-topic as it is. Suffice it to say that while I agree with you that a two-party system is utterly insufficient, I completely disagree with the idea that it's possible for a liberal democracy to function without competitive political parties.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:
At least 223 years, actually, between approximately 2151 (launch of the NX-01 by United Earth) and 2174, when they attempted to recruit Julian Bashir.

2174-2151=223?

 

[Christopher]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

Sci said:
Christopher - I'd love to get into that debate another time, but I suspect we may have dragged the thread too far off-topic as it is. Suffice it to say that while I agree with you that a two-party system is utterly insufficient, I completely disagree with the idea that it's possible for a liberal democracy to function without competitive political parties.

Competition is not what government should be about. It should be about people with different points of view working together to find the best solutions for everybody. The competitive impulse has a tendency to get in the way of that. If parties or similar factions exist, their purpose should be to represent the interests of their constituencies and give them a voice in the process -- not just to screw over the opposition.

And I stress that point: "or similar factions." I disagree that formal political parties as we know them are the only possible form that political factions can take. Just because that's the pattern we're most familiar with doesn't mean it's a universal law of nature.

I would submit that the "parties" of the UFP government are the different worlds and species represented within it. With hundreds of different societies with their own distinct needs, interests, worldviews, and ways of living, there's already an inbuilt factionalism. So political parties of the kind that we know today seem fairly superfluous in that context. Even if they did exist, they would be a minor factor in UFP politics compared to the existing divisions among different species and planets. They'd just get lost in the mix.

So it isn't really that the UFP government is devoid of partisanship. Rather, it's that there are so many different factions and points of view interacting that no presidential candidate affiliated with a single party could possibly claim to represent the interests of the majority of the Federation. A presidential candidate is nominated by the members of the UFP Council, who represent 150 different worlds, each with its own various factions and parties and other divisions. So any candidate is going to be the consensus choice of people representing dozens or hundreds of different factions. I don't see how allegiance to any one faction, be it a political party or something else, could possibly be a major factor in such a system, not where the presidential election is concerned. It's not our system, so you can't assume the same principles apply.

 

[Rosalind]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

all right, guys, time to drag this thread back on topic, and let's discuss the book.

thank you.

 

[greenmystik]

Re: Before Dishonor -- comments & opinions ****SPOILERS****

hear hear