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Spoilers Batwoman season 3

I completely disagree with the comment above, I thought this episode was excellent. Rachel Skarsten keeps hitting it out of the park and this episode features her best work yet as Alice continues to lose her mind. The stuff with Marquis was also very good and I liked our little glimpses of the Joker. Excited for the season finale next week!
 
I'm not entirely sold on the whole MacGuffin of the joy buzzer with a magic cure that only works once. For one thing, it's way too simplistic to suggest that mental illness can be cured so easily. For another, surely the technology can be replicated. Can't Luke scan its circuitry with his Batwing suit and rig up a duplicate? Maybe it'd be easier if they had the Batcave, but Luke could always contact Diggle and get help from ARGUS or STAR Labs.

And speaking of the Batcave, it's implausible that the one and only security system is the display stand in the bookcase. There should be all sorts of biometric scanners and intruder defense systems.

I wonder if bringing up Jim Gordon Jr. was a setup for the next season. It seems odd to bring in that bit of backstory otherwise.
 
As this season comes to a close, I don't hate it, though I don't think it's as good as last season. And I don't think they've fully taken advantage of the lost Batman rogues' objects. It started out that way, like an object of the week season but then shifted to Marquis being the big bad, and it's not really working for me. I think the actor is doing fine with what he is given, but I don't find Marquis that compelling as the uber big bad the writers want us to believe him to be. I think Poison Ivy fit the bill much better and came across as a threat on a greater level.

Granted, Marquis is no walk in the park. He's unpredictable, ruthless, and he knows how to push emotional buttons to get what he's after. Further, I get that the personal tie between him and Ryan should make him a more compelling and tougher (from an emotional perspective) challenge, but I'm not buying him as a Joker (sort of) wannabe.

I had read that the actor was inspired by Jared Leto's Joker and that was a bold thing to say in part to the widespread derision Leto's Joker receives. I didn't dislike Leto's take. I rather liked the theatricality. And I feel if the creators want to set Marquis up as Ryan's Joker, then they should go more all out in terms of his appearance and dress (not the traditional Joker look but more along the lines of what Leto did, including some of the tattoos, but hopefully not the forehead tattoo). Now I'm not saying that's what I want to see necessarily, but if they want to go that way then they should do it. I thought they did a much better job transforming Mary (hair and makeup, not that cheap costume they put her in). Personally, I have no problem with the idea of Marquis just being a big fan of the Joker and wanting to emulate or one-up him, but I would rather he have his own name and style (he does have his own fashison sense so there's that). To me, it seems more fitting with the character that he would do his own thing anyway. That he could take inspiration from the Joker but put his own stamp on his reign of terror.

I did like all the nods to Batman lore and had hoped we would get one with "The Long Halloween" in that Mario Falcone had perhaps done something to attempt to cure his demented brother and that's why Marquis had kidnapped him. I wasn't too impressed with the Arrowverse's origin and take on the Black Glove, I think they just screwed up an opportunity to have a long running villain group, and it seems we won't be seeing Dr. Hurt in the Arrowverse anytime soon. Now, Dr. Hurt could've been a great big bad for this show.

I was left questioning if Barbara Kean now knows Batwoman's secret identity because it didn't take much for Marquis to goad her into taking off her cowl. And Kean still did seem lucid enough.

For this week's episode I think Alice was well written and acted. At first, I was wondering if we were going to get more of a take on the Joker "Going Sane" story with her, but they ripped that away quickly. I liked how she took the fall for Mary, but I didn't like how Mary allowed her to do it. While there were extenuating circumstances behind Mary's actions, she still committed murder and for her to seemingly be almost back to the 'old' Mary by the end of the episode, that was a bit much.

I also thought Trek_God was on to something when it came to Luke. He was on the sidelines, way too much, so much so that I was expecting Mary to intervene to help stop Alice at the end instead of him. I sort of forgot he was on the show.

I thought last season's one-two punch of Black Mask and the corrupted Kate Kane, made for a better season finale challenge than Marquis in control of the Batcave
(Titans did something similar last season so perhaps that's why I'm a bit nonplussed).
Also, if I recall, Kate also had control of the Cave again in the season two finale.

They didn't go this way, but I starting thinking about the kind of established characters that Batwoman writers could've used to have Marquis stand out even more:

Byron Merideth (Prime Earth) | DC Database | Fandom
Punch (Prime Earth) | DC Database | Fandom
Marcos Maez (Watchmen) | DC Database | Fandom
Jonathan Mills (Prime Earth) | DC Database | Fandom
Phillipe Rianne (Prime Earth) | DC Database | Fandom
 
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I'm not entirely sold on the whole MacGuffin of the joy buzzer with a magic cure that only works once. For one thing, it's way too simplistic to suggest that mental illness can be cured so easily. For another, surely the technology can be replicated. Can't Luke scan its circuitry with his Batwing suit and rig up a duplicate? Maybe it'd be easier if they had the Batcave, but Luke could always contact Diggle and get help from ARGUS or STAR Labs.

I could accept the idea that a second shock would undo what the first shock did to Marquis, just on hacky television brain logic, but the idea that it's an instant cure for supervillainy no matter the motivation or cause is just plain wacky. Likewise, Alice has done a lot of terrible stuff. Heck, in her own fantasy-lusion at the beginning of the episode, she did a coup de grace thirty seconds before she zapped herself. It's hard to believe she's not self-aware enough to realize that, best case, all the buzzer would do is make New Beth ten times as guilty and horrified as Mary is now.

And I feel if the creators want to set Marquis up as Ryan's Joker, then they should go more all out in terms of his appearance and dress (not the traditional Joker look but more along the lines of what Leto did, including some of the tattoos, but hopefully not the forehead tattoo).

I remember my favorite take on that was that if the Joker got a tattoo on his forehead, it wouldn't say "Damaged," it would say, "Forehead."
 
As this season comes to a close, I don't hate it, though I don't think it's as good as last season. And I don't think they've fully taken advantage of the lost Batman rogues' objects.

No one can expect a Caroline Dries series to ever dip its toes into the pool of continuity or reason; the villain gadgets were made into a big deal, and its all boiled down to the buzzer. No character is talking about the gadgets/weapons at all. What's telling about the entire buzzer matter is that it--like the beyond Plot Convenient flashback linking Marquis to the crash which killed Kate's mother--is that this series lacks an identity of its own (more on that in the season 3 finale review).

I think Poison Ivy fit the bill much better and came across as a threat on a greater level.

The problem with TV-Ivy is that her idiotic plot would kill a city's worth of people when she claimed her ridiculous eco-terrorist plan was intended to save the environment and...people. Remember, this TV-Ivy is not supposed to be insane (hence the reason Batman simply did not place her in a light and water-deprived cell at Arkham), so her plan was supposed to be sound...only it made her look like a self-contradicting fool. Oh, well.

I had read that the actor was inspired by Jared Leto's Joker and that was a bold thing to say in part to the widespread derision Leto's Joker receives. I didn't dislike Leto's take. I rather liked the theatricality.

Leto and Phoenix are--by far--the best live action Joker performers, and recently watching both, its clear they knew how to capture what the best of the comic book Joker did in terms of not just being a rubber room candidate who laughs maniacally....in other words, they are not Marquis, the Discount Joker.


And I feel if the creators want to set Marquis up as Ryan's Joker, then they should go more all out in terms of his appearance and dress (not the traditional Joker look but more along the lines of what Leto did, including some of the tattoos, but hopefully not the forehead tattoo). Now I'm not saying that's what I want to see necessarily, but if they want to go that way then they should do it.

...but they should not, because once again, its Batwoman playing two sides: one, they cannot use A-list Batman characters outright, so they rip, pick and tease, never establishing a world of their own, and two, the one character who should have more of a legacy build-up--but does not--is Luke. Go figure.


I was left questioning if Barbara Kean now knows Batwoman's secret identity because it didn't take much for Marquis to goad her into taking off her cowl. And Kean still did seem lucid enough.

Honestly, Wilder runs around without the mask so much, she might as well no wear one at all.

I liked how she took the fall for Mary, but I didn't like how Mary allowed her to do it. While there were extenuating circumstances behind Mary's actions, she still committed murder and for her to seemingly be almost back to the 'old' Mary by the end of the episode, that was a bit much.

Mary is self-serving. Her entire Ivy arc was about her being an eternally whining woman-child who blames others for not giving her the 'round the clock attention she believes she deserves. While Luke and Wilder were clearly dealing with serious problems, Mary (before the Ivy infection) was all about "me,me, ME!" Yet the showrunners see no issue with that--or the fact she's murdered two people, and as of this post, appears to be in no danger of facing legal consequences for her crimes. Its all just "Ivy infection influence" and turn the page with the forced bit about Alice taking the blame.

I would hope the Luke character does not have that last shovel of dirt tossed on his face with a romantic relationship with Mary, but this is a Dries series, so Mary will always get what she wants. By the way, notice how the hint of romance with Stephanie Brown (S2 / E13 - I'll Give You a Clue") has been blown away to the winds, never to be referred to again? She was a far better fit for Luke (romantically and intellectually), but he's likely to be anchored to a needy whiner who has zero chemistry with.

I also thought Trek_God was on to something when it came to Luke. He was on the sidelines, way too much, so much so that I was expecting Mary to intervene to help stop Alice at the end instead of him. I sort of forgot he was on the show.

He's a token, and despite how his character was the last insider after Batman's departure, he's consistently marginalized and outright abused with disrespect from those who are no position to treat him in that manner, nor have any familial or professional ties to the Batman legacy. It is clear why Dries did this to Luke. So much for this "progressive" show..well, its "progressive" from the White Liberal perspective, which was never in the business of understanding black characters unless they were force-fit into their White Liberal concerns/agendas.

I thought last season's one-two punch of Black Mask and the corrupted Kate Kane, made for a better season finale challenge than Marquis in control of the Batcave

On any other series or film, Marquis having this knowledge would mean he signed his own death-warrant, but on Batwoman, no one is going to be even mildly surprised IF BW and the Gang refuse to protect their own world, and finally kill Marquis. Either someone will find a miracle cure (and forget he's still legally responsible for his crimes(, or he will just run off--or be allowed to--just like Safiyah, Ivy and Montoya.

Since Dries wants BW mine Batman so much, then she should have her finally mirror the decision their referenced Batman made in his final conflict with the Joker, then build on Wilder struggling to balance herself on a moral and ethical tightrope about the nature of her duty to stop crime--how far will she go. That would be a far better arc (after killing Marquis) than anything since Wilder's addition to the series.
 
No one can expect a Caroline Dries series to ever dip its toes into the pool of continuity or reason; the villain gadgets were made into a big deal, and its all boiled down to the buzzer. No character is talking about the gadgets/weapons at all. What's telling about the entire buzzer matter is that it--like the beyond Plot Convenient flashback linking Marquis to the crash which killed Kate's mother--is that this series lacks an identity of its own (more on that in the season 3 finale review).



The problem with TV-Ivy is that her idiotic plot would kill a city's worth of people when she claimed her ridiculous eco-terrorist plan was intended to save the environment and...people. Remember, this TV-Ivy is not supposed to be insane (hence the reason Batman simply did not place her in a light and water-deprived cell at Arkham), so her plan was supposed to be sound...only it made her look like a self-contradicting fool. Oh, well.



Leto and Phoenix are--by far--the best live action Joker performers, and recently watching both, its clear they knew how to capture what the best of the comic book Joker did in terms of not just being a rubber room candidate who laughs maniacally....in other words, they are not Marquis, the Discount Joker.




...but they should not, because once again, its Batwoman playing two sides: one, they cannot use A-list Batman characters outright, so they rip, pick and tease, never establishing a world of their own, and two, the one character who should have more of a legacy build-up--but does not--is Luke. Go figure.




Honestly, Wilder runs around without the mask so much, she might as well no wear one at all.



Mary is self-serving. Her entire Ivy arc was about her being an eternally whining woman-child who blames others for not giving her the 'round the clock attention she believes she deserves. While Luke and Wilder were clearly dealing with serious problems, Mary (before the Ivy infection) was all about "me,me, ME!" Yet the showrunners see no issue with that--or the fact she's murdered two people, and as of this post, appears to be in no danger of facing legal consequences for her crimes. Its all just "Ivy infection influence" and turn the page with the forced bit about Alice taking the blame.

I would hope the Luke character does not have that last shovel of dirt tossed on his face with a romantic relationship with Mary, but this is a Dries series, so Mary will always get what she wants. By the way, notice how the hint of romance with Stephanie Brown (S2 / E13 - I'll Give You a Clue") has been blown away to the winds, never to be referred to again? She was a far better fit for Luke (romantically and intellectually), but he's likely to be anchored to a needy whiner who has zero chemistry with.



He's a token, and despite how his character was the last insider after Batman's departure, he's consistently marginalized and outright abused with disrespect from those who are no position to treat him in that manner, nor have any familial or professional ties to the Batman legacy. It is clear why Dries did this to Luke. So much for this "progressive" show..well, its "progressive" from the White Liberal perspective, which was never in the business of understanding black characters unless they were force-fit into their White Liberal concerns/agendas.



On any other series or film, Marquis having this knowledge would mean he signed his own death-warrant, but on Batwoman, no one is going to be even mildly surprised IF BW and the Gang refuse to protect their own world, and finally kill Marquis. Either someone will find a miracle cure (and forget he's still legally responsible for his crimes(, or he will just run off--or be allowed to--just like Safiyah, Ivy and Montoya.

Since Dries wants BW mine Batman so much, then she should have her finally mirror the decision their referenced Batman made in his final conflict with the Joker, then build on Wilder struggling to balance herself on a moral and ethical tightrope about the nature of her duty to stop crime--how far will she go. That would be a far better arc (after killing Marquis) than anything since Wilder's addition to the series.

Though it would set up some interesting character development/moments, and potential storylines, I can't see them having Wilder kill Marquis. To do so or have her seriously being forced to contemplate it would put him in the role that Joker has been regarding Batman, with Joker often being the one villain that pushes Batman to the ledge.

Marquis, being Wilder's brother, knowing many of her secrets, I can see how he could be that trigger for Batwoman, but I don't think enough time was spent establishing their relationship to really make it hit hard for Ryan or the audience, or as hard as I think it should. (Reading back over that, I realized they've already had Alice be that triggering person, so Marquis wouldn't even be special there). Granted, Wilder could be seriously messed up by the life she didn't have with her brother, and now would never have, but I think that was kind of self-torture was better set up if they had gone with Jada Jet as the season's big bad. It was a nice swerve for that not to happen, though not too much of a subversion of expectations, by going with the evil brother. I would've been fine with neither Jet being the big bad, but perhaps having them on the series as more complex, complicated characters that skirt the law, and keeping the threat of them eventually going bad out there. Let Ryan have a little bit of a life before it gets yanked away.

While I'm not a fan of what they've done with Marquis, I do wish they had made him stand out more. He could still play that Joker role for Batwoman without taking on, or nodding to, the Joker motif. It does give him a wannabe vibe.

While Mary can be a whiny character, I do think there is chemistry between her and Luke, and I'm surprised the series hasn't gone there yet. This is surprising reticence on the part of the BW writers. From day one I've had issues with this take on Luke Fox, so them treating him like an afterthought I'm not too surprised by. I would rather they saved that character for a HBO Max movie or series, and had Johnson play someone else, though I really wish that it had been the New 52 Julia Pennyworth in the role they gave Fox for this series.

Despite my misgivings about the writing sometimes I have to consider that they were thrown for a loop when Ruby Rose left the series. Now if they had just recast the character, it might have gone smoother, but they chose to bring in a legacy character, so they brought the challenges that came with that onto themselves. That said, I think they've handled Wilder relatively well (for an Arrowverse or DC universe series; I think Batwoman often holds together better than Titans has after all).

I can't cut much slack when it comes to the villains, because even if they were denied the A-list, Batman has a ton of villains. His bench is so deep that they could take relatively obscure villains like Black Spider, Great White Shark, or the Terrible Trio and have them carry a season. Heck, they could've done more with the actual Black Glove. There are tons of obscure or relatively obscure villains they could've used, and that's just Batman. When you open the gates to the entire Bat Family, there's almost an inexhaustible number. And there's also creating villains, which they have done with Marquis, so there's that.

Black Spider (disambiguation) | DC Database | Fandom
Great White Shark (disambiguation) | DC Database | Fandom
Terrible Trio (disambiguation) | DC Database | Fandom
Black Glove | DC Database | Fandom
 
Though it would set up some interesting character development/moments, and potential storylines, I can't see them having Wilder kill Marquis. To do so or have her seriously being forced to contemplate it would put him in the role that Joker has been regarding Batman, with Joker often being the one villain that pushes Batman to the ledge.

This seems to have been the obvious direction Chekhov's Joy-Buzzer has been pointing in, but I suppose we'll know soon enough if we're going to get a Batwoman-gone-rogue storyline.

While Mary can be a whiny character, I do think there is chemistry between her and Luke, and I'm surprised the series hasn't gone there yet. This is surprising reticence on the part of the BW writers.

They were definitely setting the stage earlier, but it was completely shoved aside by Mary's turn towards super-villainy.
The cover copy for the Batwoman issue of the forthcoming comic crossover mentioned a subplot or back-up with Luke having to juggle being a boyfriend and a superhero, so I wouldn't be surprised if he and Mary end up acting on things in the finale. Or they're just going to reveal he's been hooking up with the Cluemaster's daughter for the past year and the show just hasn't mentioned it.
 
This seems to have been the obvious direction Chekhov's Joy-Buzzer has been pointing in, but I suppose we'll know soon enough if we're going to get a Batwoman-gone-rogue storyline.



They were definitely setting the stage earlier, but it was completely shoved aside by Mary's turn towards super-villainy.
The cover copy for the Batwoman issue of the forthcoming comic crossover mentioned a subplot or back-up with Luke having to juggle being a boyfriend and a superhero, so I wouldn't be surprised if he and Mary end up acting on things in the finale. Or they're just going to reveal he's been hooking up with the Cluemaster's daughter for the past year and the show just hasn't mentioned it.

I hope Wilder killing Marquis is not where they take it. They've swerved throughout this season, and I hope they swerve again there as well, if that is what they have been hinting or teasing. One aspect of the Joker-Batman relationship is that it often goes to the edge, but rarely, almost never, over, so the tension is in while this time be the time that Batman finally does it? Even Frank Miller had his Batman get close in The Dark Knight Returns, but even he didn't have him really kill the Joker. I'm expecting they won't kill off Marquis, but the joy buzzer will be some kind of cure, or will incapacitate him, and he'll be put in Arkham.

I had heard about the comic. I hadn't considered they might speed up the Mary-Luke relationship in the season finale thought to set that up, and that's a good speculation there. I wouldn't mind them bringing Spoiler back, though it feels like it would fit better for the show if it's Mary-Luke, and a season finale would be a good place to start that relationship because it sets up storylines for next season.
 
I had heard about the comic. I hadn't considered they might speed up the Mary-Luke relationship in the season finale thought to set that up, and that's a good speculation there. I wouldn't mind them bringing Spoiler back, though it feels like it would fit better for the show if it's Mary-Luke, and a season finale would be a good place to start that relationship because it sets up storylines for next season.

yes I think she would be a better match for Luke. Mary's smart but she's also a bit flighty and likes her partying etc which isn't really Fox Jr's cup of tea
 
Batwoman
Season 3, Episode 13 - "We Having Fun Yet?" - SEASON THREE FINALE

Luke Fox/Batwing:
After escaping the blimp, he happens to run into a child looking for his parents. He introduces himself as Batwing...despite the fact he's been openly fighting crime / known to Gotham's residents for months...

Alice / Mary: ...and now that Alice's "deal" with Montoya has been forgotten, and she admitted to a murder she did not commit, this series cannot continue to find new, utterly improbable ways for Alice to get out of Arkham....(SEE NOTES)

Mary is a moron: Luke reminds her that Alice murdered her mother, yet she argues in favor of "saving" Alice instead of using the buzzer on Marquis. All of her whining and moaning about "having a voice" on the team was instantly rendered irrelevant by her incredible lack of understanding threats and priorities.

Wilder/BW: Jada Jet / Marquis the Discount Joker: Just how did Marquis override any security features of the computers and various rooms in the Batcave? Oh, if its Plot Convenience 101 again, then its as easy to use the cave stuff as opening an envelope. Wilder--apparently--cares little about preserving her alledged "calling" as BW (or the threats to her friends if they are exposed as BW allies), as she never considers killing Marquis.

More Plot Convenience: Jada has to serve some purpose to the plot, so out of nowhere she has a quantum computer shipped in which just so happened to have been built by Luke's father--all to aid in this convoluted hacking sub-plot.

Yawn, like Ivy before him, Marquis' big plan (by way of the Joker) is to use the "Bat-blimp" to destroy the city (with acid bombs) leaving survivors--according to Alice--as "ugly" as he was. His threat to expose BW's identity was just a ruse to lure the citizens out into the streets so they will be at ground zero for the attack.

Jada uses whatever connections she has at the Department of Justice to fire Maquis, reinstating unqualified Wilder as CEO. Feeling burned, Marquis...well, he's going ahead with the plan he initiated earlier in the episode.

Luke hacks into the blimp's systems, but Marquis shoots the controls to block him, leaving BW no choice but to Bat-line her way up to the blimp. and deactivate the bombs.

Err....using the Penguin's hypnotic umbrella pattern as a visual fed into a massive signal to the mobiles of EVERY citizen, somehow, everyone answers their phone, receives the suggestion to hide "underground".

Marquis--who has no superpowers--gets the best of armored, weaponized BW in a fight...think about that. At the same time, he's trying to screw with her mind (regarding her need for a family), but Wilder is such a crying idiot, she actually begs for her "brother" back, letting Marquis pretend to have a change of heart and shove her out of the blimp. Whoops.

BW uses the Batline to grab Marquis, and pull him to safety, with both crashing to a rooftop. Marquis tries to kick BW off of the roof but falls over himself...with BW holding on to his hand. BW's strength is leaving her hand, but Alice (somehow) shows up to save them. Once again, Marquis tries to kill BW, but she manages to use the buzzer on him.

Luke dons the Batwing suit, flies to the blimp to deactivate the bombs. and is forced to use his father's A.I. to tap into and regain control of the blimp to steer it toward a so-called "desolate" part of the city. The A.I. calls Luke a hero, just as Luke leaves the blimp as the bombs detonate.

At Mary's clinic...instead of a legitimate hospital to treat someone who sustained injuries from a fall...received electric shock to the brain...anyway, in typical Caroline Dries fashion, characters behaving in any logical sense is absolutely verboten, because Jada and Wilder are not--in the slightest--concerned about the risk of buying into a "treatment" of a murderer. They're just ever-so-happy to have the "real" Marquis back (SEE NOTES).

Back in the sewers, Alice loses the blonde wig, packs her bags and leaves to go "find" herself. Mm-okay...like she's not going to make a "surprise" reappearance just when the Bat-gang's collective backs are against the wall...

Wilder and the team--now back at Wayne--recommit to fighting crime. Meanwhile, at the blimp's crash site, reporters are attacked and presumably killed by a figure with claws and exposed ulna, radius and tibia bones. The man--or creature walks away.

NOTES:
Funny how Caroline Dries plotting goes:

Jacob's scandal landed him in prison, and no one has heard from him since, and aside from Alice hallucinating contact with him, no character shows even a whit of interest in trying to seek parole for him or have the sentence overturned on appeal. Nope. He's pretty much a ghost story...a story no one tells.

Alice is a known mass murderer and eternally deserving of a permanent spot in the nut house, yet that other criminal--Montoya (or accessory to Ivy's crimes) arranged some deal to set her free. This is the same mass murderer who Wilder managed to aid in getting her released again...in the wake of Alice taking the blame for murdering Mary's victims.

Hmm...

Alice has so much Dries plot armor, that it robs the series of the wafer-thin level of credibility it had at the start of season two.

Despite Skarsten being the far and away best performer on this series, Alice has run out of plot--something that was set in motion at the end of season two, once she reconciled with Jacob and Kate. She has no believable (or well-written) connection to anyone else, and her back and forth with hallucinations and wanting to be normal was never handled in any sense which would make the audience care.

Again, Luke's father was an integral part of the Bat-business, is known to the Wayne board of directors and more than anyone else, should run the company...but Wilder has that (unearned) position...one wonders why (which has nothing to do with Wilder being the lead character)....

Wrapping up: Three seasons in the can, and this is all it has to show for itself? Its more low-end soap-opera than a superhero series, with the "writers" showing a level of emotional maturity on the level of an episode of My Little Pony. Despite Luke becoming Batwing and what should be a weighty pedigree, he's still the most marginalized character on the series, and you don't need three guesses to find the answer for that.

GRADE: D-.
 
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I thought the finale was good but everything wrapped up a bit too easy and happy for my tastes. Though considering they didn’t and still don’t know if a season 4 will be happening, I guess the happy ending was done in case it was an unexpected series finale. I have no idea who is teased at the end of the episode, could be many possibilities, but interested to see what happens with that if the show is renewed. Overall, this is Batwoman’s best season so far and I hope it continues. Also, 13 episodes seems to be the perfect length for Arrowverse shows and I hope they don’t revert back to 24 episodes like they used to have.
 
A pretty nice wrapup for the storyline with Alice and the others. I like it that Ryan convinced Alice/Beth to commit to doing the work rather than seeking a quick fix. And Skarsten did well showing Alice's utter brokenness and desperation at the beginning.

One: Why is there a Bat-Blimp? Two: How is it still in flyable condition after at least 7 years of disuse?


I have no idea who is teased at the end of the episode

I'm thinking maybe Dr. Phosphorus?
 
I'm not sure I'm going to stick with this show next season. This season got pretty lousy with its midway twist, and never really found its footing (when Mary asked if they thought she'd forgotten Alice killed her mom, I was absolutely expecting at least one of them to say, "yes").

On a happier note, I had Georgie Girl stuck in my head for the past couple hours, and I just figured out why. That would've been a fun reference, but apparently it'd be a bridge too far this millennium to have the Joker (ersatz or otherwise) actually make the slightest attempt to be funny.
 
I had seen some headlines before the finale teasing something shocking or explosive and I didn't really get that. I think the finale did what it needed to do to tie up many of the loose ends, and in a sense, it felt almost like a series finale.

A lot of the finale, as well as the second half of the season rested on buying Marquis as the big bad, as a legit successor to the Joker, and I never really did. Nothing against the actor per se, because in a way I feel he was given an impossible job to do, but me as a viewer, I was never really chilled, unnerved, or terrified by Marquis, especially when I needed to be on the edge of my seat. From the few seconds we got of the Arrowverse actual Joker I don't think the creators had the best grasp on the Joker to begin with. I wish they had brought Valeska over from Gotham like they did with Montoya. I think Poison Ivy or Jada Jet and the Black Glove Society would've made better big bads.

I also wish that Marquis had more henchmen. It could've been a good way to bring in Gaggy, Punch, or Jewelee. I am glad Marquis's evil plan took on aspects of the '89 Joker's and also, I got nods to Dark Knight Rises. I also wondered why Batman had a blimp (even though it takes me back to BTAS). At first, I was thinking it was the Batwing until they said it was moving slowly. And that got me wondering why doesn't Batwoman have a Batwing/Batplane? Further, why didn't Batwoman have a parachute built into her suit?

I think the episode spent a lot of time going back over the debate between who should get the buzzer. While some of that was okay-to-good for character development, it felt like it shouldn't be happening under Marquis's countdown. That countdown made taking care of Marquis first. It also rankled me that Mary equated having a voice on the team with getting her way, which is not the same to me. Having a voice means you'll be listened to and what you have to say seriously considered, but not that it's guaranteed you'll get your way. Mary knew the stakes as much as anyone, heck, she had played a role in empowering Marquis, so for her to take that moment to wring guilt out of the rest of the team wasn't cool by me (albeit it was perhaps a very human thing to do). I also didn't care for Wilder buckling and meeting with Alice because of it (though I did like that scene between the two of them; I like that they will never be chummy like that).

For a moment I was wondering if they were going to kill off Batwing, but they got rid of his "dad" instead, which in a way finally means he's flying solo and is now on the path to becoming a better superhero (not that I'm expecting we'll necessarily get that on this series), but the seeds have been planted. I was disappointed that not more seed planting was done when it came to the Luke-Mary relationship. It would've been nice to see them closer by the end of the episode.

I wasn't a fan of Wilder in her BW costume, sans cowl, just hanging out in Wayne Enterprises without even locking the door to her office. I did like Team BW's last scene, with them getting ready to get back to work though. I wasn't the biggest fan of Wilder getting Wayne back, so relatively easy either. Even if Marquis lost control why did it have to go back to Wilder? Seems like there would've been more of a fight there.

As for the last scene it did leave me wondering if BW was doing a DCeased storyline next year or if that mysterious person was Blight from Batman Beyond.

One other thing that didn't sit well with me. There was no mention of Wilder's biological father. And while I could see Jada-at first-being reluctant to talk about that, I don't get why Wilder would never ask her about it. Or perhaps even Marquis taunt Wilder about it or dangle the information over her head if he knew who it was. Ignoring the dad completely felt like a strange omission to me.
 
when Mary asked if they thought she'd forgotten Alice killed her mom, I was absolutely expecting at least one of them to say, "yes").

That would have been too much of a comment on the "writers" who shoved Alice's crime into a corner, all to sell that unbelievable "sister" plot between Alice and Mary. Realistically, no one is going to look the killer of a relative in the face and only refer to it (or act on it) for a single time. Its absurd in the extreme.



I had seen some headlines before the finale teasing something shocking or explosive and I didn't really get that. I think the finale did what it needed to do to tie up many of the loose ends, and in a sense, it felt almost like a series finale.

It did--with the BS, alleged wrap-up with Marquis (yeah, the looney bin or prison is just too good for some murderers on this series), including his being fired from the company, and Alice leaving (until further notice), if the series ended at this point, I doubt anyone would feel there were loose ends left to tie up.

A lot of the finale, as well as the second half of the season rested on buying Marquis as the big bad, as a legit successor to the Joker, and I never really did. Nothing against the actor per se, because in a way I feel he was given an impossible job to do, but me as a viewer, I was never really chilled, unnerved, or terrified by Marquis, especially when I needed to be on the edge of my seat.

From the few seconds we got of the Arrowverse actual Joker I don't think the creators had the best grasp on the Joker to begin with.

Apparently, the showrunners seemed to think being a Joker or "Joker-esque" means opening your mouth as wide as possible and cackling. That is their understanding of what a Joker is...on a series that's supposed to be steeped in Bat-lore/knowledge. There are endless reasons why the Arrowverse is so far removed from the standards of the DCEU, but this bastardized Discount Joker may be the crushed cherry on top of it all.

Berlanti's horrible series (with Black Lightning being an exception...because he had little to do with it, other than his name being in the credits) have consistently proven to be inferior adaptations of DC content, and as this era of superhero films and TV series drags on, the Arrowverse will maintain its iron grip on never being viewed as the gold standard / best representation of adapted DC material.


I wish they had brought Valeska over from Gotham like they did with Montoya. I think Poison Ivy or Jada Jet and the Black Glove Society would've made better big bads.

I'm not sure how it would have been better; their version of Ivy concocted an assbrained plan that--in the end--would destroy the very thing she claimed she wanted to preserve, and typical of a Dries production, most of her screen time was dedicated to personal drama, rather than building her as a villain--the reason anyone knows about the character at all.

Regarding Jada Jet, as long as she was tied to that Mama Drama with Wilder, there would be no room to build her up as anything other than Wilder's season-long crutch. Remove the Wilder sub-plot, and what was really there to be found in the Jada character?

And that got me wondering why doesn't Batwoman have a Batwing/Batplane? Further, why didn't Batwoman have a parachute built into her suit?

With this series' "batmobile" looking like anything other than an advanced, rolling arsenal, I shudder to imagine how a Berlanti production would create a Batwing/plane.

It also rankled me that Mary equated having a voice on the team with getting her way, which is not the same to me. Having a voice means you'll be listened to and what you have to say seriously considered, but not that it's guaranteed you'll get your way.

Ah, but that's the way a Caroline Dries series is run: logic and rationality do not exist, which is the reason so many characters--main characters--have either behaved in childish ways, or accepted it from others, when it not only plays as completely unrealistic, but hobbles the strength of any plot. Mary is a whining woman-child who earned nothing to be on a team led by costumed superheroes; she's not the kind of lifelong insider (with insider experience) like Alfred, Lucius or Luke, so she offers little of any practical Bat-centric / crimefighting value to the group. As you so accurately pointed out, she's written to whine until she gets her way, when that way--particularly where Alice and the buzzer was concerned--made no sense and proved how she (Mary) lacked the sense to see Marquis as a threat which needed to be stopped by the best (and apparently only) way available to them.

You will never, ever see Luke make any sort of argument and get his way in this manner. He will stammer, and always shelve his right to personal authority and duty in favor of whatever anyone else commands him to do. Point very much understood, Caroline Dries.


For a moment I was wondering if they were going to kill off Batwing, but they got rid of his "dad" instead, which in a way finally means he's flying solo and is now on the path to becoming a better superhero (not that I'm expecting we'll necessarily get that on this series), but the seeds have been planted.

As Batwing, Luke--who is the last true insider of the Wayne/Batman legacy--is the best qualified to act independently as a superhero. If you do not have a Dick Grayson around, Luke (for what this series has said about him) would be the next in line, but all of what that means will be dumped in order to keep him as a subordinate in the world he should have inherited. So, yeah, I too do not expect a character with all of the Bat-credits in his favor--ever amount to much. Again, point very much understood, Caroline Dries.

Even if Marquis lost control why did it have to go back to Wilder? Seems like there would've been more of a fight there.

Because Dries appears to support pushing the idea of certain characters instantly elevated to positions they did not earn. the sociopolitical ramifications of that are all too clear--especially as a black man who would--as noted above--would be the natural next leader of Wayne/Bat-legacy is stepped over in favor of Wilder, who has zero experience running any level of business and knows even less about all things Wayne.

One other thing that didn't sit well with me. There was no mention of Wilder's biological father. And while I could see Jada-at first-being reluctant to talk about that, I don't get why Wilder would never ask her about it. Or perhaps even Marquis taunt Wilder about it or dangle the information over her head if he knew who it was. Ignoring the dad completely felt like a strange omission to me.

The father simply did not matter, and Wilder's total disinterest in knowing the other half of who conceived her is--quite honestly--not a shocking kind of behavior on this series.
 
Glad the Marquis plot is over. The actor was really bad. Cringe inducing, really. Especially with Skarsten on the show being better at being a Joker at every turn,
 
It reminds me of Luke Cage where Cottonmouth was so much more compelling than the season big bad Diamondback. In this case, Poison Ivy seemed better realized than Marquis ended up being and even the episodes with her I felt were better shot and more ambitious. Though that blimp was ambitious I suppose but I think there reach may have exceeded their grasp. It would be interesting to see how another actor might've done in the role but I'm not sure the plot would've allowed it to work much better.
 
It was kind of weird how the season started with the lost Batman artifacts being the main plot driver, but then swerved into this thing about Ryan's family drama that was only indirectly connected to the artifacts arc through the joy buzzer.

On the other hand, though, I guess the Poison Ivy arc was more connected to Montoya, Mary, and Alice, and from a season-arc plotting standpoint, it makes sense to focus the season climax on an arc more directly connected to the lead character.
 
i appreciate you guys doing this conversation.... it helped me NOT to waste my time and be disappointed.But the feedback here has been interesting.

It feels like to me that the showrunners STILL have been rankled by Ruby Rose's leaving and whatever grand plan/vision they had.

While Trek_god_1 was correct in pointing out that ALice's "famly issues" should have been resolved atthe season 2 finale, i think they were more resolved in the sense that they didn't have to deal with Kate or her father again. (and bringing back Kate seemed like they were hedging their bets, in case WIlder didn't work out, but didn't make the deicision to stick with Wilder until making the fnale). The foundation for Alice's character was that she was a villain who still had a family connection, and thus making her "hard to kill", so they could drag her presence for as long as the series went on. That, in my opinion, is why they basically downplayed Alice's murder of Mary's mom. It's lame,but i see their "logic"

Also, similar logic to WIlder somehow being made CEO ... that was Kate's destiny, but got messed up when Ruby left... however that too would have been problematic. Was Bruce Wayne declared dead? And even if so, could the company REALLY be handed over to Kate (as opposed to Wayne Manor, as Kate is apparently the only relative of Bruce)? Wouldn't a board of directors have a vote in that?

Luke would have been a tough sell too, but mainly due to his age. THAT would have been some boardroom drama they could have mined for drama. But if they let him be the "guy in the chair", he could use his position as an excuse as to why Wayne Enterprises don't see him often. But as Trek_god points out , out of the whole crew, he would be the most logicl choice.

The behind the scenes politics also explains why Sophie didn't take over the Batwoman role (as she would would have been the most logical choice), but i think was a bad decision.

Regarding Mary... they set up early on that she was giving off a veneer of superficiality, but seemed like a good way to throw people off of the "good" she was doing with her illegal clinic (being NOT an actual doctor yet). The Poison Ivy thing (did thye ever call her Typhoid Mary? Seems like that could have worked in) seems like an excuse to use her...whereas, she COULD have been the biology person on the team, as well as an advocate for compassion in their actions. But a lost opportunity.

ANy word on renewal? They might go for a 4th season, like they did Black Lightning, so they don't look racist for cancelling it.

I know Covid stopped a lot of the crossovers... but it would be nice if they could somehow connect Batwoman with the other shows (since again, they lost what they were setting up with Kara & Kate).


p.s. @TREK_GOD_1 , I am still VERY interested in your thoughts on Naomi, which has a behind the scenes set-up like Black Lightning, but kinda feels a little like you describe the Batwoman show.
 
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