Spoilers Batwoman - Season 1

[Christopher]

During a Justice League/Avengers crossover in the comics many years ago, it was cheekily suggested that DC Earth was actually slightly larger than Marvel Earth to accommodate all those extra cities. Really!

Which really shouldn't be necessary. Hard as it is to believe, only about 3% of the Earth's land area is permanently occupied by humans. And a lot of that is small towns and rural areas. So there's plenty of room to "plug in" extra large cities in places where there are only small towns today, like the Atlas of the DCU did with Metropolis and Gotham.

And let be noted that SMALLVILLE placed Metropolis in Kansas, only a few hours drive from Smallville, so this stuff tends to be variable.

And in the '70s, Smallville was assumed to be near the East Coast, like rural Pennsylvania or thereabouts, so it would be close to Metropolis. It wasn't until the Reeve movie that it was established as a Kansas town (though the radio series put the Kents' unnamed town in Iowa), while Metropolis in those movies was explicitly New York with its name changed (right down to having the Statue of Liberty). So Smallville was actually putting things back the way they'd been by moving Smallville and Metropolis close together again, albeit much further west.

In some comics and shows, Metropolis and Gotham are practically next-door to each other, yet I still remember one issue in which it was night-time in Gotham (so Batman could prowl the nocturnal city) at the same time that Superman was flying through a clear blue sky in Metropolis, so, wait, they were in different time zones?

(What was really happening, of course, is that the artist instinctively drew Batman operating after dark and Superman in bright daylight because setting the right mood was more important than worrying about time zones.)

That's nothing. In the DC Animated Universe's Gotham City, it seemed that the Moon was always full. (Man, that guy from the werewolf episode must've gotten really exhausted.) I think Gargoyles did the same thing.

 

[DEWLine]

When Matt Brady and I worked on the Daily Planet Guide to Gotham City back in 2000, my own operating assumption was that Gotham was in New Jersey, just further up the coast. Bruce Springsteen's DCU counterpart would have been a greater Gotham area kid.

 

[Ovation]

So that rescue sequence at the trainyard let the VIA Rail logo slip into view for a few moments. Granted that they have connections with Amtrak that get their passengers to select US cities (Seattle, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo)...but all the way to Gotham?

Maybe VIA, Berlanti Productions and WB might want to have some joint promotional fun working that out?

Maybe Canada took over North America in the Arrowverse. Would explain the Canada Post mailboxes in National City and the Canadian government building (with sign) in Metropolis earlier this season.

 

[Christopher]

(though the radio series put the Kents' unnamed town in Iowa)

By coincidence, I was just looking for a bookmark and found a years-old scrap of paper buried under other scraps on top of a bookcase, and on it is a note I wrote to myself saying "Superman radio: Clark raised in Centerville, Iowa." So it wasn't unnamed after all.

Also, I didn't find a bookmark there because I moved them onto my desk years ago and I forgot where they were now. I'd worry I was going senile, but my memory's never been that great anyway, which is why I write notes to myself and then lose them.

 

[FormerLurker]

It's always been my impression that Gotham was menat to be a Manhattan-like island bracketed by rivers that was somehow next to Boston to account for its geography and access to the ocean. Once Batman Begins made 'The Narrows' an integral part of the city, that idea began to evolve, making Gotham both larger and smaller than previously thought.

Also, I didn't find a bookmark there because I moved them onto my desk years ago and I forgot where they were now. I'd worry I was going senile, but my memory's never been that great anyway, which is why I write notes to myself and then lose them.

The fun part is finding such a note and saying to yourself "Aha! I was going to write that story!" and finally putting the first plot points to paper.

 

[Caretaker]

Arrow was inconsistent on Starling/Star City's location. In most cases it is implied to be west coast (via ZIP codes and area codes). But season three showed a map with Starling along the western side of Lake Michigan, implying Wisconsin and fitting more with the "600 miles from Central City" numbers given (Central City, despite having a massive bay, seemed to be located in the St. Louis area).

.

 

[DEWLine]

The one thing I'd like to see is how to retcon the Narrows into the Eliot Brown 2000 map. Especially if they want to keep Robinson Park's crossing-over between South and Central Gotham Islands intact and uninterrupted. East of the Park seems problematic because of Miller Harbor, so it would have to be the west side of the islands.

 

[JD]

Thanks for posting that cover. I missed that the story was by Kara when it flashed up briefly on our TV screen.

Speaking of which, am I the only person who gets annoyed when modern TV shows expect us to be able read people's text messages when the characters glance at them on TV. I always have to rewind, pause, then get up from the couch and go squint at the TV from a few inches away--just to get a vital plot point.

I get that people communicate by text these days--and may even text important messages to each other, but do shows have to assume that we can read some tiny little letters on the screen while looking over the character's shoulders? And I have a reasonably big screen at home. How on earth are you supposed to follow the plot if you're watching an ep on your phone or laptop or something?

Some shows have texts pop up in bubbles on screen, which are easier to read, IMHO.

Anyway, end of rant, although I find this is very much a staple of CW shows in particular. (Looking at you, RIVERDALE, NANCY DREW, etc.)

That drives me crazy too, I only have a 42in, and a 20 something in my bedroom, and it's very hard to make out texts on the living room TV, and pretty much impossible on my bedroom one.

Someone should make an app for when a character on a TV show gets a message that same message pops up on the viewer's phone so one can read it in peace.
.

The only problem with that is that I watch about half of my TV shows on my computer a few days after they air.

It pains me to contemplate watching TV or movies on a frigging phone or tablet or laptop, or anything that is not a proper size and quality to let you appreciate details of the image and immerse yourself in the world of the show/film.

But, I'm old.

Along the stuff on my computer I will occasionally watch stuff on my tablet too. I still appreciate things and get just as immersed on my computer or tablet as I do on my TV. Since I'm closer to the screen, I think I actually occasionally notice more details on my laptop or tablet than I do on my TV.

Traditionally, Gotham City is presumed to be on the East Coast. After all, it's always been a surrogate New York City; it's literally named for one of NYC's historical nicknames. It wasn't until The Dark Knight just 11 1/2 years ago that it was first associated with Chicago in any way, and only because it was a filming location.

The Atlas of the DC Universe in the '90s put Gotham City along the New Jersey coast of Delaware Bay, with Metropolis across the bay on the Delaware side.

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-real-life-equivalents-of-Gotham-City-Metropolis-Central-City-etc

Conversely, in the world of the animated Young Justice, Gotham is just east of Bridgeport, Connecticut:

https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/File:Gotham_Map.png

I was surprised when I realized a while back that the DC Earth had all of their fictional cities alongside the real world ones too. I had originally thought that their cities were replacing all of the real world ones in their universe.

Kate's conflict over being a Paragon and lying to everyone by hiding her Batwoman identity was a nice way to follow up on Crisis on Infinite Earth's. I already saw a reference to Beth before watching the episode today, but I still enjoyed the way that whole thing played out. Having Alice in the Crow's custody when she showed up was a nice to let us know that it definitely wasn't just Alice in a disguise. That is a nice little wrench to throw into story.
Parker's reason for what she did tied nicely into what Kate was going through at the moment. I was pretty shocked when she actually did take her mask off in front of Parker, and that they didn't find some way to make Parker forget or convince her she wasn't really Batwoman. I wonder if we'll see her again? If we didn't already have Luke I would expect her to become Batwoman's tech person. I guess she could always be a backup if something happens to Luke at some point. I liked and definitely wouldn't mind seeing her again.
I was not at all surprised Jacob was being harassed in prison.
It did kind of bug me that no one would believe Mary about Mouse, this is a world that has not only aliens and metas, and also have crazy technologies constantly popping up from all sorts of companies like L(uthor) Corp, Palmer Industries, Obsidian North, and Mercury Labs.

 

[Christopher]

I was surprised when I realized a while back that the DC Earth had all of their fictional cities alongside the real world ones too. I had originally thought that their cities were replacing all of the real world ones in their universe.

That's a consequence of DC's world being a hodgepodge of series that were originally conceived independently of each other and only gradually connected together. Gotham City was always intended to be a fictionalized New York -- indeed, an early Batman comic opens "In the calm of a New York night" -- but eventually it got treated as part of the same universe as other comics that featured the actual New York. And so forth.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Batwoman
Season 1 - Episode 11 - "An Un-Birthday Present"

Kate/BW: The fact Alt-Kate saved Alt-Beth should not weigh on Kate, as if she failed in some way. She was a little girl in a wreck, with her mother and sister drowning (or so she believed regarding Beth).

"Let Alice go..let Alice go" At first, I thought saying it twice was code for "double"--as in use Alt-Beth to trick Mouse, but Alt-Beth arrived at that solution herself.

One refreshing moment was Kate rushing to strangle the woman she thought was Beth, which continues the merciless approach discussed with Jacob. Hopefully, she will not conveniently forget how she really feels in the next episode...even if she sees and/or knows Alice is suffering.

Luke: He seems to think Alt-Beth was tossed into BW-earth in some random fashion; it is worth noting that initially, Luke still acted as if he was still in the original BW-world--he's not mentioning any awareness of other costumed people (or events) already existing in the world with some long history, when he should--as some of the Supergirl characters do.

Alt-Beth: In her world, I take it there was no Batman attempting to save the sisters. At present, I'm taking that to mean there was no Batman existing in that world at all--there's a Bruce Wayne, but no Batman...
No matter what she's studying, she accepted the idea of a multiverse (in the sci-fi manner described to her) too quickly. Her being so willing to believe it all only works if she eventually plays a role in Zero Hour-ing the series. I suppose that will happen in some way, now that both Beths are linked/suffering.

She has an interest in Luke, but from the looks of things, the chance of a romantic connection between the two will not happen.

Mary: Oh, damn. She's a freaking idiot. She knows Alt-Beth is not the woman who killed her mother, and knows the genuine article is in custody, so she would have no reason to give Alt-Beth the hate-stares.

Alice: The showrunners are desperately trying to humanize Alice through flashbacks, but aside from the realization that there's no justification for her being an unrepentant mass murderer who belongs in a rubber room.

Her childhood insta-transformation into Alice was just that: too quick, as psychological trauma / personality shift just dies not work in that way. Her incessant referencing Sophie's life choices will only be worth if she can continue to use it to manipulate her--and Kate going forward.

Jacob: Cannot wait for him get out of prison.

Sophie: Sigh. Alice playing all-too obvious mind games about Sophie being "trapped in your cage, and you always will" and "lose the thing you love so dearly" was a groan-inducer. It will shock no one if she permanently ditches any idea of reconciling with her husband and chase after Kate.

NOTES: A merged world/doubles of existing people is such an old trope that there's nothing fresh (unexpected) anyone can do with it. All it really says is that to avoid confusion, those in the know should wish for/work toward any opportunity to restore their original world, but Berlanti, et al., are digging their feet into this sloppy CW-COIE and its effects, so the mess might be around for good.

The crowd/phone scene (and that awful song) scene was such a corny scene.

GRADE:B.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Alt-Beth: Her being so willing to believe it all only works if she eventually plays a role in Zero Hour-ing the series.

No one in her life knowing her would be quite the wake up call.

The crowd/phone scene (and that awful song) scene was such a corny scene.

It did look cool when Kate/BW jumped down the building though. Not using the batsignal seemed a little odd even with homophobia.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It did look cool when Kate/BW jumped down the building though. Not using the batsignal seemed a little odd even with homophobia.

Not using the Batsignal should have been tied to a running plot of law enforcement being sick of vigilantes in the wake of Batman leaving. That's a position that would resonate in a city where the law might be tired of relying on someone hiding behind a mask with bigger picture motives unknown to all.

 

[DEWLine]

How many other people also in Alice and Alt-Beth's situation across the universe as presently constituted?

 

[Christopher]

While it was interesting to see the contrast between the two faces of Beth, I felt the story structure was very contrived -- they set up that Kate feels guilty about not going back to pull Beth out of the car, and then immediately set up a situation where Beth is trapped in a car so Kate can pull her out and absolve her guilt. How conveeeenient. They could've at least had them trapped somewhere different so it wouldn't be quite so on-the-nose.

Not using the batsignal seemed a little odd even with homophobia.

The reactions of fanatical homophobes in real life can seem very odd.

What I found odd was how little Batwoman actually appeared in this one. Until that final scene, I was wondering if they'd do a whole episode without Kate ever suiting up.

How many other people also in Alice and Alt-Beth's situation across the universe as presently constituted?

I've been wondering that myself, but I kind of have a suspicion that it'll be limited to people connected to the Paragons, the people whose mental focus helped recreate the multiverse. Every change we've seen so far is linked to them in some way. The two worlds belonging to the Paragons merged into one. Lex rewrote his reality so that he and his family were on top of the world, and so that he got to explore the "interesting" sensation of being seen as a hero. The doppelgangers on Supergirl include one of Winn Schott, Kara's best friend, and many people from Al's Bar, Kara's favorite hangout. And the doppelganger on Batwoman is not only a version of the beloved sister that Kate has longed to see again, but specifically the version from Earth-99, the one Kate saw a photo of and was aware that she had grown up with on that Earth.

So it's like the mental focus of the Paragons not only recreated the multiverse but changed their own merged world in way that was shaped by their emotions and wishes -- the wish to be together on the same world, the wish to be reunited with loved ones, the wish to be free and victorious in Lex's case. So I suspect we'll only see doppelgangers of people connected with the Paragons.

Which might be a way to salvage Earth-2 Harry and Jesse even with Earth-2 now apparently being replaced with Stargirl's world. Maybe we'll find when The Flash returns that they've been wormholed to Central City Prime, perhaps along with most of the Council of Wells, and maybe Jay and Joan Garrick.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

No one in her life knowing her would be quite the wake up call.

Alt-Beth--or anyone--would be more inclined to think they were suffering from some sort of breakdown first, rather than believing in something as way out as multiverses. Kate even uses the fact that to the layman, multiverses sounds like the stuff of fantasy to convince the curious Mary that its all silly (at least until the next episode where the Alice and Alt-Beth are linked in their suffering).

 

[JD]

I'm curious exactly what they told Mary about Beth? At first I thought maybe they told her the truth and found a way to convince her, but then at the end she laughed off the idea of her being from an alternate universe. So did they just tell her they were wrong and Alice really isn't Beth?
The flashbacks to Beth's transformation into Alice filled in some nice gaps in her backstory.
The stuff with the alternate Beth was pretty good. I thought maybe they were actually going to kill her off in the car there for a moment. I actually liked Kate being able to save her from the car. I'm curious if they're actually going to keep her around or find someway to get rid of her. I wonder if they're going to explain why Beth and Alice seem to be having issues, but all of the Brainys on Supergirl didn't. Is it something unique to them, or were the Brainys just not around long enough for whatever it is to get to them?
The crowd of people showing up chanting turn on the light was a nice moment.

 

[Christopher]

I'm curious exactly what they told Mary about Beth? At first I thought maybe they told her the truth and found a way to convince her, but then at the end she laughed off the idea of her being from an alternate universe. So did they just tell her they were wrong and Alice really isn't Beth?

What? She didn't laugh off the idea, she said it sounded plausible after reading Beth's paper. (I guess Beth's paper was on her phone or something?) Although it was kind of implied that she came up with the idea on her own, so it's still a question.

Granted, Kate couldn't exactly tell Mary "I have firsthand knowledge of parallel Earths" without revealing the whole Batwoman, Paragon of Courage thing, so maybe she kept that to herself. But I did wonder how much she told Beth regarding how she knew so much about parallel Earths.

The crowd of people showing up chanting turn on the light was a nice moment.

I think the Bat-Signal is a silly idea in this day and age -- why use a searchlight to get someone's attention rather than posting a notice online? But the episode did a nice job of using it as a symbol, at least. I guess that's its only remaining purpose, as a symbol for the public, letting them know that their hero(ine) is on the case.

 

[JD]

What? She didn't laugh off the idea, she said it sounded plausible after reading Beth's paper. (I guess Beth's paper was on her phone or something?) Although it was kind of implied that she came up with the idea on her own, so it's still a question.

She didn't? I thought after she said it she made some kind of comment about how ridiculous the idea was and just laughed it off.

I think the Bat-Signal is a silly idea in this day and age -- why use a searchlight to get someone's attention rather than posting a notice online? But the episode did a nice job of using it as a symbol, at least. I guess that's its only remaining purpose, as a symbol for the public, letting them know that their hero(ine) is on the case.

The way I've seen it, is that it isn't just to call Batman/Batwoman, but a way to let the regular people of Gotham know that he/she is out there, and to hopefully make the criminals nervous.

 

[Christopher]

The way I've seen it, is that it isn't just to call Batman/Batwoman, but a way to let the regular people of Gotham know that he/she is out there, and to hopefully make the criminals nervous.

Sure, but in the context of a fictional reality where Batman only came into being a decade or two at most, one has to wonder why someone even would've come up with the idea of using a 1940s technology like a searchlight as the means of contacting Batman, instead of something online. Heck, everybody's on social media these days, and nobody actually looks up at the sky because they're all staring at their phones, so an online Bat-Signal would get a lot more public attention, wouldn't it?

I found the animated series The Batman relatively mediocre, but I liked it that it tried to ditch the Bat-Signal in favor of a more modern "Batwave" alert that Bruce got on his mobile phone (though it was really more of a pager and it had a problematically conspicuous Bat-emblem, given that it was a device Bruce Wayne would often look at in public surrrounded by a crowd of people). I thought that was a nice update. But then after season 2, they retooled the show to be more conventional and brought in the Bat-Signal at the same time they ditched the original character who'd been Batman's police contact (played by Ming-Na Wen) and replaced her with Commissioner Gordon.

 

[JD]

Ok, that is a good point. I was thinking of the real fact that the characters has been around since long before the internet, but looking at him as a character who came around after the internet, a text alert would make more sense. It wouldn't be that hard to just set up a mass alert with a bit Bat symbol, like they do for weather or amber alerts and things like that.