Sorry for yet another thread on NCO's amd officers but I'm watching Hippocratic Oath at the moment and I was wondering, why does O'Brien answer to the orders of Bashir when as a senior Chief Petty Officer (although only enlisted) he has more years of command and experience than than Bashir, who is only a young Medical Lieutenant, who isn't on the Command track and can only really give orders during Medical situations (forgive me if I'm wrong on this). As the most senior in experince and years of service, and at least closer to the Command track, shouldn't O'Brien be taking charge?
Bashir and O'Brien - More Authority
- Thread starter Crewman47
- Start date
Bashir outranks O'Brien and that's the start and end of it (sorta - if you know anything about how the miltary works, well at least here in the UK, no 2nd lft. is going to bawl out a senior NCO such as a Warrant Officer without getting told to pull his neck in by his senior officers and maybe the Warrant officer saying "fack off SAR!" ;-) ).
Earlier in the series, Nog was only a cadet.
Silly rabbit, medical doctors are officers. During WWII, unlisted men can leave the military when their tour of duty comes to an end. With the officers, they are there till the end of the war period. Do you really want your doctors going home from the war?
It has always been the custom to have medical doctors be officers.
Plus college degree usually means officer. In the US Masters Degree gives eligibility for promotion to 0-4 (Major or Lt. Commander) and Doctorate Degree (Especially in Law or Medicine) means that the individual starts out O-3 (Captain or "full" Lieutenant) upon signing papers to join. Usually Lawyers and Doctors are O-4 (Major or Lt. Commander) upon completeting their military training.
...Of course, in most situations, Bashir wouldn't have any need or desire to pull rank on O'Brien. But "Hippocratic Oath" prompts him to use a technicality to his advantage.
Really, in terms of today's education, O'Brien probably holds more doctorates than we could count. Yet it remains unknown what the relative level of education is between our Hero Mechanic and the Hero MD, in 24th century terms. Is Bashir actually a mere medical handyman without noteworthy expertise, as compared to O'Brien who excels on so many aspects of natural sciences? Is Bashir's officer status the result of his higher level of military training, as opposed to education in his field of speciality?
Then again, we do hear that Bashir is eligible for a medical award reserved for the best and brightest in his field, while O'Brien is only famous for his past heroics as a lowly infantryman. So possibly Bashir is so good in absolute and relative terms that he deserves those collar pips more than O'Brien does.
There isn't much other difference between the two guys. Both are career soldiers who will probably never retire from Starfleet. Both appreciate promotions when those come their way. Both like to boss people around, but also to dedicate themselves to what they know they do best. So it does sound a bit unfair that O'Brien would forever be inferior in rank, just because he took a somewhat shorter initial training, all those decades ago. If the 24th century works anything like ours, O'Brien could certainly be given a commission and a rapid series of promotions, to match Bashir's officer rank in a year or two. That is, if such things really mattered in the 24th century. And in "Hippocratic Oath", they certainly seem to...
Timo Saloniemi
Really, in terms of today's education, O'Brien probably holds more doctorates than we could count. Yet it remains unknown what the relative level of education is between our Hero Mechanic and the Hero MD, in 24th century terms. Is Bashir actually a mere medical handyman without noteworthy expertise, as compared to O'Brien who excels on so many aspects of natural sciences? Is Bashir's officer status the result of his higher level of military training, as opposed to education in his field of speciality?
Then again, we do hear that Bashir is eligible for a medical award reserved for the best and brightest in his field, while O'Brien is only famous for his past heroics as a lowly infantryman. So possibly Bashir is so good in absolute and relative terms that he deserves those collar pips more than O'Brien does.
There isn't much other difference between the two guys. Both are career soldiers who will probably never retire from Starfleet. Both appreciate promotions when those come their way. Both like to boss people around, but also to dedicate themselves to what they know they do best. So it does sound a bit unfair that O'Brien would forever be inferior in rank, just because he took a somewhat shorter initial training, all those decades ago. If the 24th century works anything like ours, O'Brien could certainly be given a commission and a rapid series of promotions, to match Bashir's officer rank in a year or two. That is, if such things really mattered in the 24th century. And in "Hippocratic Oath", they certainly seem to...
Timo Saloniemi
^
Not necessarily. I think it's been established that Starfleet has a officer training program. Bones, for instance, never went to the academy. I think he went to Ole Miss, but I could be wrong about that.
Not necessarily. I think it's been established that Starfleet has a officer training program. Bones, for instance, never went to the academy. I think he went to Ole Miss, but I could be wrong about that.
We don't really have watertight background stories for any of our medical professionals, so we can't tell how long Bashir, McCoy or Crusher spent at their studies. We just know from DS9 "Trials and Tribble-ations" that McCoy attended "Ol' Miss" (presumably referring to the University of Mississippi and not some other institute of lower or higher education) as "student" (pre- or postgrad, civilian or Starfleet, we do not know), at some ill-defined date that might roughly coincide with him joining Starfleet.
For a more definite example, we also know from TNG "Menage a Troi" that Deanna Troi studied at the University of Betazed, and other cues place this as possibly happening during her Starfleet studies (at least if her frankly rather speculative graduation date from TNG "Conundrum" is correct, and if she took the full four years). Yes, that's as definite as it gets!
We haven't heard anybody on screen suggest that one of our medical specialist heroes did NOT attend the Starfleet Academy during their initial training, though.
As for O'Brien getting Lieutenant's pips, the current practice of making a "mustang" out of an enlisted man does not necessarily involve forcing him through the entire military academy curriculum. Rather, there would be at least three ways to go:
1) Resign from being enlisted, attend Academy if its age limits and other rules allow, get commission to officer rank from said Academy.
2) Get instant battlefield commission to officer rank, catch up with a few special courses later on.
3) Get the so-called Direct Appointment to commissioned rank, catch up on formal education later on.
In O'Brien's case, all three would be relevant, but #3 would be the least complicated way, dramatically as well as bureaucratically speaking.
Timo Saloniemi
For a more definite example, we also know from TNG "Menage a Troi" that Deanna Troi studied at the University of Betazed, and other cues place this as possibly happening during her Starfleet studies (at least if her frankly rather speculative graduation date from TNG "Conundrum" is correct, and if she took the full four years). Yes, that's as definite as it gets!
We haven't heard anybody on screen suggest that one of our medical specialist heroes did NOT attend the Starfleet Academy during their initial training, though.
As for O'Brien getting Lieutenant's pips, the current practice of making a "mustang" out of an enlisted man does not necessarily involve forcing him through the entire military academy curriculum. Rather, there would be at least three ways to go:
1) Resign from being enlisted, attend Academy if its age limits and other rules allow, get commission to officer rank from said Academy.
2) Get instant battlefield commission to officer rank, catch up with a few special courses later on.
3) Get the so-called Direct Appointment to commissioned rank, catch up on formal education later on.
In O'Brien's case, all three would be relevant, but #3 would be the least complicated way, dramatically as well as bureaucratically speaking.
Timo Saloniemi
It actually makes a lot of sense in a realistic military scenario. Besides the aforementioned rank authority, you often have positional authority. Ie. In some military jobs/positions, whoever is doing the job, speaks and/or acts with the authority and rank of THE commander. Command staff positions very often do use this (although not all positions).
