Balance of terror, balance of evidence?

[Timo]

Only, that ellipsoid shape in ST2:TWoK was the Klingon Empire.

Plotwise, that's not very satisfactory. After all, we know the Romulan Neutral Zone has not gone away in the meantime. The heroes should not be talking about "the" NZ if two of them brush against Gamma Hydra - the potential for confusion would be too great.

OTOH, we do know that e.g. Khitomer changes ownership, from neutral to Klingon, at some point: Klingon borders certainly aren't explicitly immutable in any given time period. So a KNZ reaching up to where there was nothing but the RNZ before is a possibility at some timepoint. But only at a timepoint after the incident where there's only a single NZ near Gamma Hydra...

Or should we postulate that the RNZ indeed was briefly disbanded, or relocated, in the late 23rd century (a time of detente where Romulan Ambassadors are allowed into the Federation's most secret strategic meetings)? This would IMHO take much more doing than saying that Klingons can be found inside the RNZ - either only in cruel simulations, or then also in the reality of the universe, wreaking havoc on Romulan reputation by preying on third parties on their territory.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C57D]

I just tried to make a comment but seem to be having technical problems and so lost it !,,

 

[johnnybear]

Even if we ignore the Remans from TNG Nemesis we know there is a planet called Remus in the zone and that could have been inhabited by peoples opposed to the Romulan government!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Maybe the Klingon neutral zone was established at the end of the television series and that explained how relations between the two governments may have thawed a bit..?
JB

 

[johnnybear]

And TOS never contradicted itself..right?

Not once, no!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Well of course it did! When you have a collection of writers working on a television series you're always going to get fowl ups even when the same writer has contradicted himself from his earlier works as well!
I just didn't like ENT much as well as the errors made I guess!
JB

 

[somebuddyX]

Let me start by saying that I love BoT and consider one of my all time favourite TOS episodes.
But.......I have always been troubled by the evidence and logic behind the "no Human ever saw a Romulan"

I think there's ways to get around it. Romulans had auto-destruct systems built in to all the ships. They were like the Chigs from Space: Above and Beyond and destroyed any evidence of themselves if they were captured. They shoved the Remans or other captured races into troop roles, so Earth faces these guys but never actually Romulans. They used more drone ships like the one in Enterprise so no crew member were ever captured. I don't mind the restraints that Balance of Terror creates. I think a smart writer could create a very interesting story about the war itself.

 

[Forbin]

Just reacting to a couple of things Timo said -
The Neutral Zone in TWoK was clearly meant to be the Klingon Neutral Zone.
Sulu didn't turn the ship around to flee the plasma bolt in BoT - Kirk clearly orders full reverse.

 

[1001001]

Well of course it did! When you have a collection of writers working on a television series you're always going to get fowl ups even when the same writer has contradicted himself from his earlier works as well!
I just didn't like ENT much as well as the errors made I guess!
JB

Dude, seriously?

I have asked you repeatedly to please stop making multiple posts in a row, and just use the multi-quote function.

Please review the board rules here: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/rules-a-short-guide-to-posting-on-the-bbs.282269/#post-11662568

Thanks

 

[T'Bonz]

Next time, warn him.

 

[Kor]

As for the Klingon Neutral Zone...

In TOS, planets in the area between the Federation and the Klingon Empire would come under the influence of whichever side could develop the planet better, per the terms of the Organian treaty.

Apparently, relations between the two powers had become more tense by the time of the movies, so that treaty terms must have been revised to stipulate that any entry into this... shall we say, zone of neutral space, was no longer permitted.

Kor

 

[Poltargyst]

The Neutral Zone in TWoK was clearly meant to be the Klingon Neutral Zone.

I remember someone posting that it was going to be the Romulans but for some reason they decided to/had to go with Klingons instead, so we ended up with a Klingon Neutral Zone. I agree that as presented it is absolutely intended to be a Klingon Neutral Zone. There is no need to reach for "maybe the Klingons invaded the Romulan Neutral Zone..."

 

[Poltargyst]

The Neutral Zone in TWoK was clearly meant to be the Klingon Neutral Zone.

Agree. It was intended to be a Klingon Neutral Zone. No need to reach for "maybe the Klingons invaded the Romulan Neutral Zone..."

 

[Poltargyst]

I have no problem with the Romulan War as laid out in BoT. All battles were ship to ship at a time when there was no ship to ship visual communication technology. No planetary warfare involved. All negotiations for cease fire were handled via radio.

 

[Forbin]

Starfleet's video was NTSC, the Romulans was PAL.

 

[1001001]

I have no problem with the Romulan War as laid out in BoT. All battles were ship to ship at a time when there was no ship to ship visual communication technology. No planetary warfare involved. All negotiations for cease fire were handled via radio.

Please see post 109.

Thanks.

 

[Nebusj]

Agree. It was intended to be a Klingon Neutral Zone. No need to reach for "maybe the Klingons invaded the Romulan Neutral Zone..."

I do not understand the objection people have to there being three (imaginary!) Klingons in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Among other things the Klingons are the only power that could send ships into that space without it being necessarily an act of war! Romulans can't have legitimate business being in there.

 

[Poltargyst]

I do not understand the objection people have to there being three (imaginary!) Klingons in the Romulan Neutral Zone. Among other things the Klingons are the only power that could send ships into that space without it being necessarily an act of war! Romulans can't have legitimate business being in there.

Because there is no statement in the movie that it is the Romulan Neutral Zone, there is no surprise given by anyone that "wow, look at that, there's Klingons in the Romulan Neutral Zone." You have to go too far outside what the movie shows to believe this for my taste.

 

[Timo]

The opposite interpretation is certainly possible as well: it would be far too much a stretch if the audience were to disassociate Gamma Hydra from the Romulan Neutral Zone, since clearly this is the reference the writers were going for.

It's cool how "Klingons messing in RNZ" so nicely mirrors "Romulans flying Klingon ships", both as a valid in-universe tactic for the two warring cultures and as an out-universe, last-minute, cheap cop-out so that no new footage of Romulan ships would need to be filmed.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C57D]

I think there's ways to get around it. Romulans had auto-destruct systems built in to all the ships. They were like the Chigs from Space: Above and Beyond and destroyed any evidence of themselves if they were captured. They shoved the Remans or other captured races into troop roles, so Earth faces these guys but never actually Romulans. They used more drone ships like the one in Enterprise so no crew member were ever captured. I don't mind the restraints that Balance of Terror creates. I think a smart writer could create a very interesting story about the war itself.

I just have a logistical and logical (hopefully) problem with a race that always self destructs their ships rather than be captured. And it is the real risk that they will run out of ships and trained crews after a while!
At what point does any given Rom Captain decide that their ship was certain to be captured and so self destruct? Main power down (but repairable in time), main power down and unrepairable, enemy boarding parties approaching, enemy boarding parties aboard ( and so Humans meeting Roms face to face!!) - just when? Too trigger happy (in too many occasions) and you risk losing too many ships and crews to sustain a successful campaign, and too hesitant and you end up being captured.
Presumably the Roms were more on the trigger happy side of things, but after so many self destructions of ships that may have been repairable, would they have enough left to sustain the war?
Maybe that is a major part of why they lost??

NB -I can understand the BoT "carrying two new super secret weapons" infiltrating Warbird self destructing - as a special case. But every Rom ship ready to self destruct at a moments notice ???