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Bakula; a downer?

... I tend to believe suggesting is more powerful than plainly showing.
True. If you're talking about sex.

Oh dear, you did take me by surprise. I just cannot see why sex should be the only question to be treated by suggestion. As HopefulRomantic observed in her very rational and convincing - IMO - post, there is no need to show always everything. I rather tend to consider extended flashbacks an artistic fault, because usually they mean that the writers didn't find a more subtle way to communicate their point.


I don't want Archer's character to be defined by other people's behavior. I want it to be exposited by his own history.

Why not? Expostion by interaction is one of more effective technics in drama. Think about famous two queens dialogue in Schiller's "Maria Stuart" - it tells more about Elisabeth I than many ufficial biographies.

And I still think talking about "hate" is too strong a word, even if I tend to agree that Archer - T'Pol change of mood is a bit too fast. Well, it was kind of necessary to leave her on board, so I'm willing to close one eye. On the other hand, I'm glad we continue to see friction in other episodes and the things don't settle completely at once, in spite of good will they both show.:)
 
... I tend to believe suggesting is more powerful than plainly showing.
True. If you're talking about sex.

Oh dear, you did take me by surprise.
:devil:

I just cannot see why sex should be the only question to be treated by suggestion. As HopefulRomantic observed in her very rational and convincing - IMO - post, there is no need to show always everything. I rather tend to consider extended flashbacks an artistic fault, because usually they mean that the writers didn't find a more subtle way to communicate their point.
Sex isn't the only subject that should be handled with subtlety. But when you have a character whose behavior is not subtle, I want to know a lot more than I do about this person especially if he's coming off as a jerk.

You ever see Firefly? There's an episode (don't recall the title), in which Captain Reynolds makes a very insulting comment about Anara's profession. She is a member of a caste of highly-valued companions (read: call girls) who wield great power and influence. She gets from planet to planet aboard his ship.

Reynolds comes across as a total ass -- and if this incident had occurred in the first episode I would have disliked him intensely because Anara is presented as a strong, independent, honorable person who didn't deserve the slap.

But it happens several episodes in when we have had a chance to see that while Reynold's a rogue, and definitely has his flaws, he's also loyal and a good friend and captain. So I waited to see where it was going to go in the episode. It hurts her and she confronts him about it later in the episode. He says he doesn't respect what she does, but he does respect her. It's a subtle distinction, no doubt about it, but it worked in the context of this well-established character.

The problem with Archer is that his character is not well established when he tells T'Pol he's fighting the urge to slug her. I can't imagine anything that would excuse that remark, but at least a stronger connection to the way Archer feels would help us identify with him (despite our long-term love affair with the Vulcans).

Unless it was the intention of the writers/producers to create a Trek captain who was unlikeable just so he could grow on us. :rolleyes:

I don't want Archer's character to be defined by other people's behavior. I want it to be exposited by his own history.

Why not? Expostion by interaction is one of more effective technics in drama. Think about famous two queens dialogue in Schiller's "Maria Stuart" - it tells more about Elisabeth I than many ufficial biographies.
It is effective. It was not effective in Broken Bow.

We go from this Mild Child building a model spaceship and chatting with Mild Dad about Ambassador Pointy to this angry, resentful, crabby, irritable, ill-mannered "diplomat"? NOTHING at all has happened to this point to explain his behavior. The Vulcans aren't warm and fuzzy, but still, am I to believe that Archer is compensating for Vulcan emotional control by exercising no control over himself? Are we talking about a grown man or a colicky baby?

And I still think talking about "hate" is too strong a word, even if I tend to agree that Archer - T'Pol change of mood is a bit too fast. Well, it was kind of necessary to leave her on board, so I'm willing to close one eye. On the other hand, I'm glad we continue to see friction in other episodes and the things don't settle completely at once, in spite of good will they both show.:)
I don't think hate is too strong a word. Watch that first scene between the Vulcans and Archer in Broken Bow.
Watch him in Breaking the Ice.
Watch him in Fallen Hero.
Watch him every time Forrest mentioned the Vulcans.
His reaction to the mere mention of the Vulcans elicits a reaction that cannot be explained by simple "dislike."
 
. I don't think hate is too strong a word. Watch that first scene between the Vulcans and Archer in Broken Bow.
Watch him in Breaking the Ice.
Watch him in Fallen Hero.
Watch him every time Forrest mentioned the Vulcans.
His reaction to the mere mention of the Vulcans elicits a reaction that cannot be explained by simple "dislike."

I'm enjoying this discussion a lot, but I cannot help noticing, that the "hatred" towards Archer seem to be far more heated than his dislike to Vulcans, lol. Which means he is really "good" character, from the cinematographic point of view.

It is effective. It was not effective in Broken Bow.

We go from this Mild Child building a model spaceship and chatting with Mild Dad about Ambassador Pointy to this angry, resentful, crabby, irritable, ill-mannered "diplomat"? NOTHING at all has happened to this point to explain his behavior. The Vulcans aren't warm and fuzzy, but still, am I to believe that Archer is compensating for Vulcan emotional control by exercising no control over himself? Are we talking about a grown man or a colicky baby?

Frankly, I could do without the initial flashback and go directly to the point, because for me the initial confronation between Vulcans and humans is clear enough.
Before Archer arrives Vulcans party show themselves as arrogant and disagreable as anyone ("aren't warm and fuzzy is the understatement of the year! :lol:) and it's quite clear that all the representatives of Starfleet are pissed off, but have no gut to tell it openly. Then the Vulcans propose to murder Klaang and sweep away Archer's ethical concern with contemptuous "You have to learn to look beyond your provincial attitudes and volatile nature". Oh, really? I wouldn't go for Archer is he actually DID knock T'Pol to her ass, but he restrained himself, didn't he? And Soval raising his voice when he cannot have his way? Are we talking about a grown man or a colicky baby? :devil:

.
Unless it was the intention of the writers/producers to create a Trek captain who was unlikeable just so he could grow on us. :rolleyes:

Here we come again: the starting point in this discussion seem to be the presumption that the captain must be, if not without blame, at least really nice guy - and you have of course every right to like it this way.

I, on the other hand, do prefer a character with flaws and the fact that neither Archer nor T'Pol come as particularly likeable at first and that they both have to change and to become more mature. I admit, I didn't think much of Archer initially but I came to respect him and like him gradually, which I found far more interesting than being given a perfect hero at once.:)
 
JiNX, I think that people can like or dislike Archer for their own reasons, but your argument is undercut by overstating the evidence.
[Archer’s change of heart re: T’Pol] was too fast. He inexplicably asks T'Pol to remain as his science officer after a single mission (she didn't help out the goodness of her heart, those were her orders) and she inexplicably agrees.
Neither one is inexplicable. Archer learns, during the course of Broken Bow, that T’Pol will not only follow his lead and make the mission work (even thought she thinks it is "foolish"), but she’s smart enough to solve the problem while Archer is unconscious. We see him struggling with his perception of her as he paces in his quarters while dictating his log. He had assumed that she would deep-six the mission the minute she took command, and she shocked him by not doing that. That is the moment he begins to rethink his position on Vulcans.

T’Pol, through the course of Broken Bow has her perceptions challenged as well. She can see that Archer is a person of courage, who (illogically in her mind) risks his life to save her - and gets shot as a result. She sees him walk into the inner sanctum of the Klingons and present his case, completing his mission. And then she talks with him and he eats crow and promises to work on his attitude. Her change in perception can be based on her up-close and personal interaction (and a challenge to her own preconceptions), as well as her recognition that her logic and discipline (and her scientific knowlege) would be an asset to the ongoing mission.

Not hard to understand any of that.

Yet he would continue to rag on her about her species,

I don’t recall any malicious comments about her (certainly nothing on the level of McCoy versus Spock on TOS). I recall teasing, which I never heard as being offensive, until he lost his sense of humour in Season 3 and stopped joking completely.

give her dirty looks when Vulcans turned up on his radar (as if it was her fault),

Perhaps this is the Rorshact test at work, because those looks always seemed to me to be: you know something about this that I don’t? And I don’t think it was unjustified, given the fact that T’Pol obviously did receive mail from Vulcan sources, and Archer had asked her not to go behind his back to report on him and his crew. I think it took a while to trust that she wasn’t doing that.

and behave like an ass whenever he was in the room with a Vulcan that wasn't T'Pol. It was strictly "present company excepted."

Right, like the rude reception he gave Ambassador V’Lar, and not being able to keep his temper with Captain Vanik, and torpedoing the Vulcan/Andorian talks, and not feeling the need to investigate or come to the rescue on P’Jem when he realizes that the monks are being held hostage. He gets a bad rap for not liking or trusting the Vulcans, but no credit at all for overcoming his feelings and doing the right thing.

That's not really much of an advancement.

Can’t we even give the guy credit for his progression to Season 4? Gee, tough crowd.

I don't think hate is too strong a word. Watch that first scene between the Vulcans and Archer in Broken Bow.

He’s irritated, highly offended, and aggravated. What he says is as obnoxious as what T’Pol says to him. But you need that scene to contrast with his eating humble pie at the end of the episode.

Watch him in Breaking the Ice.

Where he’s trying mightily to be pleasant to someone who goes out of his way to insult him and his hospitality. And he puts aside his pride (at T’Pol’s and Trip’s urging) to accept help. What’s clear from the episode is that there have been many occurances of Vulcan ships shadowing them and spying on them. Vanik never says anything that isn’t condescending about humans or Enterprise in that whole episode. Even T’Pol looks embarrassed.

Watch him in Fallen Hero.

Call me crazy, but I think the captain is totally justified here, since the Vulcans send his ship on a mission and never tell him that it’s a hostile situation. He goes in, not on Tactical Alert, has a conversation with someone who then tries to blow him out of the sky, and has to run for his life. If I remember correctly, the aliens’ attack almost breached the hull. He wasn’t ready for that, and it almost cost everyone their lives. And on top of that, when he questions her about it, he gets the old, Nope, not going to give you any information about why these people are trying to kill you. I’d have dropped the Ambassador off on the nearest available planet. Yet, in the end, he does everything he can to save V’Lar’s life, just because T’Pol asks him to. It’s one of my favorite scene in the whole series, when T’Pol says, "Captain, in all the time I’ve served aboard Enterprise, I’ve never asked you for anything. I’m asking now. Don’t return the Ambassador to Mazar." And, even though she is still keeping information from him at V'Lar's request, he pauses, nods, and says, "Okay."

Watch him every time Forrest mentioned the Vulcans.

Like when Forrest tells him to give up a shuttle and a pilot on a supersecret mission that could very well get that pilot killed? Or when Forrest is waffling about maybe the Vulcans were right and we weren’t ready for space and that they should shut down the Warp project rather than try to solve a technical problem? Or when Forrest doesn’t back him up when Soval calls him a murderer? Or when Forrest thinks the best way to deal with the Xindi is to wait for the next weapon to come and destroy the whole planet?

His reaction to the mere mention of the Vulcans elicits a reaction that cannot be explained by simple "dislike."

Seriously, it’s explained by a lot of things, the least of which is dislike.

Miriel68 said:
the starting point in this discussion seem to be the presumption that the captain must be, if not without blame, at least really nice guy - and you have of course every right to like it this way.

I, on the other hand, do prefer a character with flaws and the fact that neither Archer nor T'Pol come as particularly likeable at first and that they both have to change and to become more mature. I admit, I didn't think much of Archer initially but I came to respect him and like him gradually, which I found far more interesting than being given a perfect hero at once.

I agree. It’s interesting that you’d bring up Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly, because he’s another flawed captain that I like both in spite of and because of his flaws. I watched all of the episodes in a row (in the order they were intended to be aired) and from the first I thought, Wow, this guy is kind of a cranky jerk. And by the end of the series, I still thought he was a jerk. He was way more obnoxious to his crew and passengers than Archer ever was. But that was part of his character, and it made him interesting. I feel the same way about Archer: his flaws - and his struggle to overcome them are what make the character interesting.

Sorry about the longwinded post, but I just wanted to address some of the underpinnings of the argument, rather than do a "no, he isn’t/yes, he is" response.
 
Bluedana said:
Neither one is inexplicable. Archer learns, during the course of Broken Bow, that T’Pol will not only follow his lead and make the mission work (even thought she thinks it is "foolish"), but she’s smart enough to solve the problem while Archer is unconscious. We see him struggling with his perception of her as he paces in his quarters while dictating his log. He had assumed that she would deep-six the mission the minute she took command, and she shocked him by not doing that. That is the moment he begins to rethink his position on Vulcans.
As I've heard Jinx has mention many times before on this issue (and I'd have to agree), this "growth" seems to go out the window almost from the very next episode, where he continues to throw out nearly all the advice she gives and make snippy comments that boil down to "Vulcan opinions are full of fail and AIDS." What good is having this experienced officer when he rarely took any of the rather sound advice she give him? No, he never made any out-right insulting comments to T'Pol (the first scene they met notwithstanding), but that doesn't mean he didn't do thinks that weren't just as assholish.

I do agree that some folks don't give credit for his progress in later seasons (post season two and certainly by season four), though. Unfortunately, the first season killed it for may people, and not being especially fond of Archer the first season myself, I can't say I blame most for it.
 
I don't really agree with this never listening to T'Pol's advice business, seems to me folks get really annoyed with SNW and ignore all the advice he does listen to.

Fight or Flight - he initially does listen to her about leaving the alien crewmembers to their fate but it (quite rightly imo) doesn't sit well with him so he goes back.

Strange New World - I'll give you this one but c'mon, T'Pol was at least partly to blame for suggesting a weeks worth of probing to a Captain and crew who clearly can't wait to actually get out and explore. That was never going to sit well with this crew. If she was as smart as she's supposed to be she would have suggested a very scaled back scanning mission that wouldn't have left the crew completely in the dark than just putting forth the Vulcan mantra (which she also doubly knows the Captain has issues with).

Terra Nova is the next episode she gives advice and it's about not dragging back the Novans to Earth, which he follows.

TAI: she doesn't want to go to P'Jem but not because she fears anything bad is going on down there, she just doesn't want other Vulcans to see the smelly humans she's with (Archer's not the only one clearly showing his prejudice's throughout the show's early runs)

Breaking the Ice - admittedly Archer's not shown in the best light here with his reluctance to ask the Vulcans to help Mal and Travis but it is T'Pol who talks him into it.

Civilisation - I believe she is initially against going down but it's clear they are at least scanning the planets and stuff now before they go down. And once they find the power sig her resistance seems to go away.

I could go on, but I'd end up listing most of the episodes from the rest of Season 1 because I can't think of any where he really dismisses her advice out of hand. In fact the next time he doesn't seem to listen to her is ANIS in S2 (and no I don't want to open that can o' worms :p )

Sure, pick on his attitude, but to say he never listens to her advice seems wrong to me.
 
I don't agree with the premise that if you don't agree with or follow your First Officer's advice, you are being an asshole to her. It's a difference of opinion or approach, not a personal insult. Every captain in Trek chose not to follow his (and I presume her, although I never watched VOY) first officer's advice, even Vulcan advice at one time or another. Does that mean they were all assholes? In SNW, Archer thinks Vulcans are super-conservative and decides, I don't want to do it their way. Fine. Would the week's worth of scans have revealed the psychotropic pollen that would affect the humans? Maybe, maybe not. Just because Vulcans are logical, doesn't mean they are automatically right.

I'd point out, as well, that in two very controversial episodes, Archer did impliedly follow T'Pol's and/or Phlox's advice, at least he acted with their consent and overt approval, against his own personal principles, and he still gets slammed by people who don't agree with his decisions - because they think that he should have ignored their advice and done something different.

I think Lady Conqueror is right. Sometimes Archer takes T'Pol's advice, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes she comes around to his way of thinking. Sometimes he gets into trouble. Just like in real life, people can disagree on a course of action without it automatically meaning disrespect.
 
Archer follows T'Pol's advice more often that not. I think in the first season, the very point is he's not sure he should follow her advice -- he doesn't trust Vulcans and he's not sure what to make of his first officer (someone assigned to him, not the person he picked). In fact, the purpose of both Andorian Incident and Shadows of P'Jem is their changing relationship. Hell, in Fallen Hero he makes a decision based on T'Pol's plea.

In the end, he listens to her advice quite a lot, even over Trip's -- his initial pick for first officer

Every captain in Trek chose not to follow his (and I presume her, although I never watched VOY) first officer's advice
I've watched enough of VOY to know that's true. And I'd like to underscore this point, because people forget: Kirk did not always follow Spock's advice. Sometimes Spock was wrong, a nice allusion when he and Kirk played 3D chess together. Kirk followed his emotions or used them as a basis of decision-making; Spock did not. The era of Picard was a lot different -- many of the decisions fell to Riker. Even then, Riker occasionally had an idea that Picard didn't follow. Sisko sure as hell didn't listen to Kira every time; for one reason, she had a prejudice against the Cardassians (understandable).

I also agree, Blue, the point of the show was that T'Pol grew as well. When she joined Enterprise, she was pretty sure the humans were infants that weren't ready for space. Over the years, her ideas are challenged, mostly by Archer.

I do agree that some folks don't give credit for his progress in later seasons (post season two and certainly by season four), though. Unfortunately, the first season killed it for may people, and not being especially fond of Archer the first season myself, I can't say I blame most for it.
You know, I really feel that people just plain old enjoy hating Archer (all have been brought up on the BBS before): His furrow is annoying! He's sexist to T'Pol and should've been fired by Starfleet's HR dept! He's prejudice! He's wrinkled! He was mean to Trip! He was mean to Reed! He's old! It should've been Trip that was captain! He made a bad decision.

In reality, aren't some of these arguments silly, and the ones that aren't, true of other characters? Trip made mistakes (Co-genitor), as did every other character -- Reed (left his communicator behind, nearly ending his and Archer's life), T'Pol (took drugs on the job for crying out loud), etc. T'Pol was mean to Trip and Trip was mean to Reed after his sister died. They all were prejudice in the beginning, and Hoshi even cursed at T'Pol in Broken Bow. Phlox was chubby and had an over-extended smile that bordered on being creepy.

And knowing what we know about other captains, aren't many of these true of them? Kirk was a walking HR violation including hitting on people who reported to him. All of them -- for sure -- made mistakes. Each of them occasionally were mean to the people in their command. Kirk snapped at Spock and Bones more than a few times and fired Scotty. Picard, as reasonable as he was, came down like a hammer on his personnel when they were out of line and even occasionally when he disagreed with them. Kirk's girdle was annoying, as was his fake hair piece. Picard's baldness was annoying and he straightened his jacket every episode. Sisko's voice nearly always shook when angry. Janeway sounded bitchy. I liked pretty much all of them either okay or enjoyed them. Picard is one of my favorite characters, as is Kirk.

All in all -- Archer best captain? No, not in my opinion. Picard -- from just a captain's standpoint -- had it together. Kirk, much like Archer, made decisions based on his gut; Picard hardly ever did. More over, Kirk lost a lot of crewmen! Archer -- decent captain? Given what he had to work with (no prior experience or protocols), you bet. Flawed? Definitely. I enjoyed that about him as a character. Perfect characters are boring - they have nothing to overcome ergo no growth potential.
 
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You know, I really feel that people just plain old enjoy hating Archer (all have been brought up on the BBS before): His furrow is annoying! He's sexist to T'Pol and should've been fired by Starfleet's HR dept! He's prejudice! He's wrinkled! He was mean to Trip! He was mean to Reed! He's old! It should've been Trip that was captain! He made a bad decision.

I haven't been on the board much time, but I've got the same impression: when one is determined to dislike Archer, anything he does is judged wrong :confused: Of course, everybody is entitled to like or dislike a character: some of us prefer a more human, flawed person, some wish for a more glamorous one, and that's fine. But if we try to discuss it and not just to express our preferencies, wouldn't it be better to make an effort for a non partial point of view?
There are three things we are in fact talking about here:
1. general concept of Archer's character
2. The way this concept was put into scripts
3 Scott Bakula's performance

For the point one - well, this is just matter of personal preference, no much to discuss about
For the point two - some episodes are weaker, some stronger, but I do think much effort was given to create a development and continuity of Archer's character. In fact, much more than in TOS or TNG, IMO and we need to remember Picard has more than 170 episodes to show himself, Archer only about a half of it. I don't say Picard wasn't a good captain - on the contrary he was probably the "best" commander of a starship. However, as a character, I always found him a bit boring: he didn't change much in all these seasons and in many episodes he played just an efficient official of Federation.
For the point three - I believe Scott Bakula delivered a superb performance, even if th episodes he obviously didn't care much about, like In the Mirror... If we were to judge acting rather than character, I would put Bakula without esitation in the first position, with Patrick Stewart at second place.
 
You know, every time I see this thread topic it bugs me a little.
Yeah, sure Archer was a downer at times, but Bakula is never a downer.
He is, as John Billingsley said, "A prince among men".
Just had to say that.

Now back to the discussion on Archer....
 
Good comment! It gets me too---a back handed way to have a bash thread IMO.
 
It gets me too---a back handed way to have a bash thread IMO.

Having checked the OP's registration date, he's come far too late to know about any of the true Archer bashing. He just posted a rather inaccurate thread title, but nothing more. IMO, of course.


You know, I really feel that people just plain old enjoy hating Archer (all have been brought up on the BBS before): His furrow is annoying! He's sexist to T'Pol and should've been fired by Starfleet's HR dept! He's prejudice! He's wrinkled! He was mean to Trip! He was mean to Reed! He's old! It should've been Trip that was captain! He made a bad decision.
Yeah, a lot of arguments regarding Archer came right out of the place where the sun don't shine. :lol:

But many more criticisms were quite legit--things I'd felt about Archer well before I knew this place even existed or even spoke about the show to people outside of the classmates who watched the series with me. I don't want a perfect character any more than you do, but I think the first season could have done a bit better to show that without many, if not most of the fanbase pulling their hair out in frustration.
 
Anna--I just meant some people who are not Archer lovers are doing some back handed bashing. I think the thread was started in earnest and is a good one. However I doubt substituting another actor/character would be tolerated as well.

I never watched QL but did tune into Ent to see Bakula who was the first publicly wooed Captain.Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew were known and successful actors so I always hate when the press references refer to Bakula as the first "name" Captain.I was impressed that Trek was having the courage to show a Captain making the mistakes a first captain would make. Also showing that though Archer trusted T'Pol his trust didn't extend to all Vulcans. Even in Kirk's era the Vulcans were a mysterious race suggesting that there was probably still an element of if not mistrust not total openness either.In series drama the writing staff should make adjustments to the main character whose job it is to sell their stories 20+ weeks a year.Series drama is not a film or a novel where casting is for specific script or in the reader's mind.
 
I haven't been on the board much time, but I've got the same impression: when one is determined to dislike Archer, anything he does is judged wrong :confused: Of course, everybody is entitled to like or dislike a character: some of us prefer a more human, flawed person, some wish for a more glamorous one, and that's fine. But if we try to discuss it and not just to express our preferencies, wouldn't it be better to make an effort for a non partial point of view?

Unfortunately, I think we can all see the same things and come up with completely different conclusions based on our preferences. Therefore, it really boils down to opinions. For example, I can list a million episodes where Archer made good decisions -- many more than he made bad ones. In the end, people reach their own conclusion about whether he was "too flawed" or not. Make sense?

But many more criticisms were quite legit--things I'd felt about Archer well before I knew this place even existed or even spoke about the show to people outside of the classmates who watched the series with me. I don't want a perfect character any more than you do, but I think the first season could have done a bit better to show that without many, if not most of the fanbase pulling their hair out in frustration.

I disagree with you on the "fanbase." I think the BBS provides a highly skewed version of who "fans" are -- both Star Trek and Enterprise. I can't tell you how much it scared me to think the writers read this board and actually -- quite possibly -- made decisions based on our ramblings.

Fans are people who care. Period. The board is devoted to the most extreme of fans -- people who have an opinion about whether T'Pol's eyebrows weren't Vulcan enough and can discuss that for pages. (I should know, I have an opinion about that, too.) We're like those most extreme people on any given political issue; in other words, when it comes to ENT, we're not moderates. I've run into "fans" who don't go online (or conventions, or buy books, or ...), and they have less extreme opinions. Make sense, they don't spend the majority of their days dealing with minitua.

And I think of those that go online, not everyone hangs out here. People go -- typically -- where others agree with them. For example, I think those who hated ENT for various reasons left long ago. You can see vestiges of their opinions in threads that gets sent over here from the general forum.

On flawed characters, I'm not sure everyone likes them really. If people wanted a captain to make good decisions 100% of the time, they're probably better off with TNG, where they'll only be disappointed in Picard like 10% of the time. All other Trek captains are off the list.
 
Alot of people like flawed characters as long as they approve of the flaws <G>. Archer , as we learned in First Flight, was not like any other Captain as far as his experience and training went. His focus previously was on piloting and we know he was not good with people interaction. He worked to overcome the last but he wasn't trained to be a diplomat and had only met one other race--the Vulcans who he had mistrusted since childhood. Alot of trek fans like the status quo of their universe and Archer upset this.T'Pol upset this. Luckily most of these fans left before season 3!

I agree with commie that this bbs and many other represent a skewed view of the typical fan. We talked with many at the Vegas con a couple of years ago who never go online and it was refreshing to hear their views and watch their expressions when we told them of the views here.
 
I never watched QL but did tune into Ent to see Bakula who was the first publicly wooed Captain.Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew were known and successful actors so I always hate when the press references refer to Bakula as the first "name" Captain.
If I recall correctly, Bakula is the first Trek captain who was a leading actor on another big show. I can't speak on Avery Brooks, but wasn't Mulgrew's big claim to fame at that point was playing on a soap opera? Not that I knock her for it, since I've been watching daytime TV since I was knee-high :P But it's quite a difference from being a well-known actor on a prime TV show.

Regarding the fanbase deal...just today, I learned a friend in another fandom of mine also was a Trekkie in passing. She'd made a post on Enterprise's pilot that, quite frankly, was so bang on to other comments that I've seen on the last five years from all sides from this show, it was eerie...and this was someone who had never posted on a BBS about Trek or knew much of anything about fandom's perceptions of characters (Which I'll agree with you, Commie, on that---some things *do* get blown up so much online, especially if you've been around the same group of posters for so long).
 
I never watched QL but did tune into Ent to see Bakula who was the first publicly wooed Captain.Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew were known and successful actors so I always hate when the press references refer to Bakula as the first "name" Captain.
If I recall correctly, Bakula is the first Trek captain who was a leading actor on another big show. I can't speak on Avery Brooks, but wasn't Mulgrew's big claim to fame at that point was playing on a soap opera? Not that I knock her for it, since I've been watching daytime TV since I was knee-high :P But it's quite a difference from being a well-known actor on a prime TV show.

Regarding the fanbase deal...just today, I learned a friend in another fandom of mine also was a Trekkie in passing. She'd made a post on Enterprise's pilot that, quite frankly, was so bang on to other comments that I've seen on the last five years from all sides from this show, it was eerie...and this was someone who had never posted on a BBS about Trek or knew much of anything about fandom's perceptions of characters (Which I'll agree with you, Commie, on that---some things *do* get blown up so much online, especially if you've been around the same group of posters for so long).
She starred in a short-lived prime-time spinoff of Columbo called "Mrs. Columbo."
 
Avery Brooks was on "Spencer for Hire," a popular show from the 80s. Kate Mulgrew has been in a number of things; I'd forgotten about Ms. Columbo. I didn't really know either her or Avery Brooks, but knew Patrick Stewart as "that guy from PBS." (He's been in a number of things from the BBC.)

Regarding the fanbase deal...just today, I learned a friend in another fandom of mine also was a Trekkie in passing. She'd made a post on Enterprise's pilot that, quite frankly, was so bang on to other comments that I've seen on the last five years from all sides from this show, it was eerie...and this was someone who had never posted on a BBS about Trek or knew much of anything about fandom's perceptions of characters (Which I'll agree with you, Commie, on that---some things *do* get blown up so much online, especially if you've been around the same group of posters for so long).
I'll tell you my anecdotal stories -- I mention stuff to my husband all the time that happens here. He liked the pilot and pretty much all the characters, wasn't crazy about ANIS, but thought Archer was a fun captain. He doesn't think Trip hung the moon (and thinks Cogenitor was Trip's fault, and hates the show because he kept telling Trip not to do stuff), doesn't hate TATV or understand why anyone would, really doesn't enjoy any of the relationships on ENT (seen or unseen) and couldn't care less about canon. (He liked TOS okay, TNG pretty well, DS9 kinda and hated VOY.) In other words, he doesn't think exactly like me and he doesn't think like the "majority" of the fanbase here. Like most people, he has his own opinions. He came online at one point and decided not to come back. It's too bad, I like hearing/reading his opinions even if I don't agree with them all the time. Star Trek or otherwise. :)

Angie mentioned the people we met at the 40th convention. Their reactions really surprised me and gave me a whole new appreciation for what the untainted think. One guy knew who Scott Bakula was and thought he was "fine" as the captain, but didn't know the other characters names very well and knew Trip as "the engineer." And yet, he was in the room waiting for Jolene Blalock to speak. Another fan, sitting in the front row for all the major convention events (Takei/Nichols/Koenig, Majel Barrett and her son, etc.), really liked Archer. The mix was wide and varied ... and that's just the people we talked with.

More over, some long time fans may care more about one show than another. I have a pal that loved TOS and thinks that every show afterward was crap, including TNG; he watched all of them religiously. Some may love DS9 to the exclusion of all others and wish that ENT was more DS9like. And ENT -- many people who love Archer, as I mentioned above, don't want to hang out here any more so typically love Archer elsewhere. Some people loved that T'Pol was emotional and some thought it was one giant cop out. And people even have opinions somewhere in between. Just that mix can be found on a board where people love Archer and/or T'Pol.

In other words -- there is no one single opinion. Like politics, I imagine the web of opinions is pretty complicated. Even, I think, my opinions are complicated. I loved certain aspects of the show, and didn't like others. I love things about the characters, but not others. I liked when they connected things to TOS, but hated when they did so meaninglessly with fanboy zeal -- for example Cloud Miners was a pitiful TOS show; I cringe when I read Coto wanted to do something with it and can't believe anyone would want to see it. (And I remember typing in season 2 that there should be more TOS connections, like the characters going to Vulcan.) I enjoyed the characters' growth, but am not sure I enjoyed the complete journey for T'Pol. I think TATV was fine, but dislike where they left T'Pol.

So, my comment wasn't just that people who hang out here tend to love Trip and hate TATV. I think opinions don't come in one flavor, either. I'm sure even those who love Trip and hate TATV have complex and complicated opinions about why they didn't like TATV -- some hated Trip died, some hated that the show was devoted to Riker and Troi, some hated no one grieved over Trip's corpse, some may not like that the show ended with possibilities that didn't include Trip, some didn't like that they believed it painted Trip in a redneck light .... See my point?

Generalizations are typically -- in all things -- wrong, wrong, wrong. (Irony intended.)
 
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Avery Brooks was on "Spencer for Hire," a popular show from the 80s.
Avery Brooks' portrayal of Hawk was so amazing, that the author of the Spenser series, Robert B. Parker, changed the written character (which had been established in several books prior to the series) to conform to Brooks' on-screen persona.

Sorry, Boston-lit geek moment there. Carry on.
 
Angie mentioned the people we met at the 40th convention. Their reactions really surprised me and gave me a whole new appreciation for what the untainted think. One guy knew who Scott Bakula was and thought he was "fine" as the captain, but didn't know the other characters names very well and knew Trip as "the engineer." And yet, he was in the room waiting for Jolene Blalock to speak. Another fan, sitting in the front row for all the major convention events (Takei/Nichols/Koenig, Majel Barrett and her son, etc.), really liked Archer. The mix was wide and varied ... and that's just the people we talked with.

In other words -- there is no one single opinion. Like politics, I imagine the web of opinions is pretty complicated. Even, I think, my opinions are complicated. I loved certain aspects of the show, and didn't like others. I love things about the characters, but not others. I liked when they connected things to TOS, but hated when they did so meaninglessly with fanboy zeal -- for example Cloud Miners was a pitiful TOS show; I cringe when I read Coto wanted to do something with it and can't believe anyone would want to see it. (And I remember typing in season 2 that there should be more TOS connections, like the characters going to Vulcan.) I enjoyed the characters' growth, but am not sure I enjoyed the complete journey for T'Pol. I think TATV was fine, but dislike where they left T'Pol.

So, my comment wasn't just that people who hang out here tend to love Trip and hate TATV. I think opinions don't come in one flavor, either. I'm sure even those who love Trip and hate TATV have complex and complicated opinions about why they didn't like TATV -- some hated Trip died, some hated that the show was devoted to Riker and Troi, some hated no one grieved over Trip's corpse, some may not like that the show ended with possibilities that didn't include Trip, some didn't like that they believed it painted Trip in a redneck light .... See my point?
Well as long as we're being anecdotal, before the prevalence of website forums on the internet there were the Usenet newsgroups. Back then, the newsgroups had more participants than this forum did at it's peak a few years ago. Each Trek show had it's own separate newsgroup and all were pretty heavily populated.

In the ENT newsgroup, the show, Archer/Bakula, and the Beebs, were skewered like you wouldn't believe. They pretty much hated T'Pol and the Vulcans from the start, the ship, the song, etc. Not a big deal because the show was different for Trek, even in season 1.

The one thing that surprised me then and still does, was the Trip-love. I'm not just talking about women, but guys too. They loved the character. I had a real hard time understanding this because I REALLY disliked Trip from the start of the show. In episode after episode, scene after scene, where I thought the character was written as a buffoon, the ng fans loved him. It took me a season and 3/4 to warm up to Trip, but IMO, I think they began to "fix" him by the end of season 2.

Archer/Bakula, of course were lightening rods for scrutiny and criticism on the ENG ng, which is to be expected since this was a Trek captain. But it wasn't all bad. Scott was and is a good looking, really nice person, who people just want to like. So, IMO, his professional limitations are many times overlooked by his fans. I can relate, I'm a Jessica Alba fan for godsake.

As for TaTV, I have yet to go anywhere on the Internet or Usenet, where the episode is not completely vilified -- as you say, for all sorts of reasons. Now the general public (of those who watched), casual ENT (Trek) fans who don't frequent the internet, may have liked it, but among the hard core ENT fans, those who like to obscess in fan forums, the episode was disliked -- at least from what I've seen.

So I'll agree that opinions vary all over the place, however, there do seem to be some universal truths out there that cannot be explained away as being anything but what they appear to be.
 
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