Bad Language in Discovery

[Prax]

Chakotay walks in on 2 crewmembers making out in the turboloft. In another episode, Tuvok walks in on Paris and B'lanna getting sexual on the engineering console.

And in Pathfinder, she's not his secretary. She's his caregiver, who's a hologram that he built for himself. If that's somehow sexist, it's because Zimmerman is sexist, as is highlighted in his other appearance on DS9.

Edit. Or I'm thing of another Zimmerman episode.

Edit Edit: Okay, so the admiral has a secretary, but I don't see how that makes it a product of it's time. Most secretaries are female. I'm sure the secretaries at CBS right now are predominantly female, if not entirely female. The one place today that I can think of where secretaries are mostly male, and rarely female, is in the military. Starfleet bucks the trend.

 

[Commishsleer]

Indeed - of all the shows, it would make sense on Voyager. The premise holds that they're setting out on a near generational voyage. It was silly that we never really saw them unclench.

I think that Janeway set the tone. I love Janeway but she was a bit stuffy.

I was surprised by year 4 there weren't babies all over the place not because of sexual freedom but because they needed a new Generation to get back to Alpha quadrant.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2017/11/01

I’m the last one to complain about ostensibly “needless” profanity; I’ve profited handily by it, and I’ve employed others, paying them essentially in eff words. It was mostly just surprising to hear it in Star Trek. In case you were not aware, this is not your grandpappy’s episodic space navy. Don’t believe me? This is how you know a show ferries a mature payload: the characters talk like YouTubers.

I watch it at night, in the dark; I suspect a lot of people watch it with the fam, as Grob does. I don’t think it will drive young people to a life of crime or anything. It’s just that things which have never happened before are very surprising.

https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2017/11/01/star-trek-fng

(p.s. if this falls afoul of our Google overlords, mods please delete the pic! no sax or violins tho so *shrug*)

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Chakotay walks in on 2 crewmembers making out in the turboloft. In another episode, Tuvok walks in on Paris and B'lanna getting sexual on the engineering console.

It's funny you bring up the turbolift moment. That happened in an episode originally produced in the first season, when the show was still full of promise, originally alluding to the idea of Voyager evolving into a generational ship with crew members pairing off, having children, etc...

Only to never be followed up! Cut to the seventh season and not much has really changed on Voyager aside from Torres and Paris being the only couple on board with a kid on the way. Naomi was the only child on Voyager and she was conceived PRIOR to Voyager leaving DS9.

That just shows you how moments like the turbolift were ultimately an outlier rather than something that was exceedingly happening on Voyager throughout the years. This was a show that should have shaken things up as it moved forward, evolving from a strict crew compliment into a community. Imagine that by the end of the show there are children taking their first kindergarten class. When Voyager returns home they should have been nothing like they were at the start.

The only part I liked about "Endgame" was when Paris admitted to himself that he viewed Voyager as his home rather than Earth, showing his priorities had changed. Imagine if he wasn't the only one and by the end of the show the crew had less incentive to return to the Federation. How would Janeway deal with that, and does she still hold the desire she had in the pilot?

So many opportunities that show never took. Instead it was too complacent to be just another generic Star Trek show.

 

[Prax]

The show took advantage of many opportunities. You just missed them.

 

[ralfy]

Whether the writers of TOS would or wouldn't have used an f-bomb is irrelevant, because they were the writers of TOS, not the writers of DISCO.

We couldn't have had Jean-Luc Picard say "son of a bitch" in 1987, but by 2001 Jonathan Archer could call the Vulcans that like it was as natural as breathing.

Times change.

My statement was a response to an argument that explains why bad language was not used by TOS writers.

Ironically, the next point of your post follows that argument: did the TNG writers want characters to use profanity more often? That is, assuming that it's supposed to be "as natural as breathing".

Finally, doesn't the point that times change work for and against these arguments? That is, if profanity is more acceptable now, then that means it's not as "natural as breathing"? That just as profanity is more acceptable now one imagines it was no longer in wide use in the future envisioned by the franchise?

 

[ralfy]

Roddenberry wrote the shooting script in which Kirk flipped out his communicator and said "Let's get the hell out of here". In 1967. This was one of the first times the word "hell" was used on broadcast TV and is considered one of the first uses of profanity on TV. I think he'd be fine with it.

I wonder how teens that time saw the word "hell" in terms of profanity. My sense is that with heated emotion they used worse.

 

[Commishsleer]

I imagine if Janeway hadn't managed to get home early there may have been a point in time (with 65 years to go?) where Janeway said to her crew go forth and multiply. Any later and a lot of people might have been too old.
Maybe if she OKed it before it would be like giving up?

 

[ralfy]

Exactly. And Star Trek does not exist in a bubble outside of time and the rest of pop culture. Any new version is always going to reflect current trends in society and show biz. We're probably not going to see a lot of beehive hairdos on DISCOVERY either, or beautiful female guest-stars shot through Vaseline.

Understandably, TOS alluded to the Vietnam War and racism, but it together with the rest of the shows did so through a vision of profound human advancement. If any, that was why the Kirk-Spock tandem was so popular, as it revealed the interplay between human emotions (driven by both compassion and anger) and reason. Thus, the show was probably popular for that reason: it was able to exist outside pop culture even as it was part of it.

If any profanity was used, it was always for a reason, as an expression of Kirk or McCoy's frustrations or anger, or as a curious way of looking at the present (e.g., Spock struggling with it in Voyage Home), etc.

Perhaps there was a good reason why the writers decided to include one instance in the scene, but I wonder what the reason was, as a depiction of the franchise in a dark light was sufficiently "refreshing" for me.

One clue lies in the manner by which Tilly apologizes for the outburst. Since profanity has not figured prominently in the show, then it's possible that she (and probably even Stamets) did not learn such from her surroundings but from some fascination with only one segment of human history.

 

[ralfy]

I forgot about Burnham, who was raised by Vulcans, right?

Tilly: That is so fucking cool.

Burnham: I do not understand the statement, cadet. What does this have to do with sexual activity or temperature?

LOL.

 

[Succubint]

Wow, way to really miss the boat there guys. A perfectly spontaneous moment in the context of the scene which even touched on the possible inappropriateness of the utterance but also offered forgiveness due to the positive sentiment expressed. Does not equate to everyone randomly cussing for the sake of cussing.

It's like when people label Discovery Star Trek: Game of Thrones. It couldn't be more inaccurate or ridiculous. Not to knock GoT, I love the show for what it is. How about they lampoon the Orville and its morbid fascination with hairy scrotum, dry humping and gelatinous dicks? Or calling the first officer a bitch. That's the true Trek successor, right?

But then again, I've been pissed at Penny Arcade ever since Gamergate happened. Guess it's par for the course. I will remain thinking they are...wait for it...legen- totally out of touch a-holes.

Sorry, this touched a nerve, obviously. Will endeavor to speak no more about it.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

My statement was a response to an argument that explains why bad language was not used by TOS writers.

Ironically, the next point of your post follows that argument: did the TNG writers want characters to use profanity more often? That is, assuming that it's supposed to be "as natural as breathing".

Finally, doesn't the point that times change work for and against these arguments? That is, if profanity is more acceptable now, then that means it's not as "natural as breathing"? That just as profanity is more acceptable now one imagines it was no longer in wide use in the future envisioned by the franchise?

When I said the times have changed I was alluding to how censorship became less strict over their years regarding language. Kirk wouldn't have been able to shout "shut off that damn noise" in 1966. Picard wouldn't have been able to say call Q a "son of a bitch" in 1987. Archer wouldn't have been able to say "this is fucking awesome" in 2001.

And as I mentioned in another post, there was a time when a married couple could not be allowed to be shown sharing a bed together. Was that just a conscious decision by the makers because they believed showing a couple lying in bed was in bad taste, or was that because censorship wouldn't allow it?

The show took advantage of many opportunities. You just missed them.

The only thing I've missed was "The Haunting on Deck Twelve".

If the show took opportunities the ship wouldn't look like it was just launched from dry dock in "Endgame". One thing I appreciated about BATTLESTAR GALACTICA was how the conditions of the ship changed from the beginning to the end. At first it's just another ship, by the end it's worn out its welcome and personalized with photos of loved ones on the corridor walls. It's those kind of touches that would have made Voyager unique. Instead, it's just another ship with a Starfleet crew. Rick Berman overriding Piller by having the Maquis wear Starfleet uniforms was just an indication.

 

[ralfy]

When I said the times have changed I was alluding to how censorship became less strict over their years regarding language. Kirk wouldn't have been able to shout "shut off that damn noise" in 1966. Picard wouldn't have been able to say call Q a "son of a bitch" in 1987. Archer wouldn't have been able to say "this is fucking awesome" in 2001.

And as I mentioned in another post, there was a time when a married couple could not be allowed to be shown sharing a bed together. Was that just a conscious decision by the makers because they believed showing a couple lying in bed was in bad taste, or was that because censorship wouldn't allow it?

I don't think they allowed Tilly to use bad language simply because censorship became less strict. Otherwise, we'd see more of it often throughout the episodes that have just been shown. The same goes for arguing that this is part of Tilly's character.

Given that, I'm guessing that the writers thought that it would be cute to include some references to contemporary slang, and perhaps similar to using songs from the Bee Gees for the party scene and characters looking for burritos.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Given that, I'm guessing that the writers thought that it would be cute to include some references to contemporary slang, and perhaps similar to using songs from the Bee Gees for the party scene and characters looking for burritos.

Star Trek is filled with contemporary slang. Mostly because it's a show for contemporary audience. Which has nothing to do with being "cute".
The song wasn't by the Bee Gees,it just sampled one of their songs.
So, you think burritos wont be around in the 23rd Century, but chicken sandwiches and coffee will be?

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I don't think they allowed Tilly to use bad language simply because censorship became less strict. Otherwise, we'd see more of it often throughout the episodes that have just been shown. The same goes for arguing that this is part of Tilly's character.

The fact that they've only used an f bomb just once probably indicates that they only want to use not only occasionally but on the appropriate moments.

Star Trek is filled with contemporary slang. Mostly because it's a show for contemporary audience. Which has nothing to do with being "cute".
The song wasn't by the Bee Gees,it just sampled one of their songs.
So, you think burritos wont be around in the 23rd Century, but chicken sandwiches and coffee will be?

Hey, we saw nobody in TOS order a burrito, so that must mean nobody in the 23rd century nobody eats them anymore. So, if DISCO suddenly has characters craving for a burrito it's a WORLD DESTROYING anachronism.

I wonder how many TWIN PEAKS fans were put off when Lynch and Frost had characters dropping f bombs when we never saw them do that in the original ABC show.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Burritos = CANON VIOLATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Prax]

Burritos weren't banned until 2261. There was an incident.

 

[Greg Cox]

Burritos weren't banned until 2261. There was an incident.

But we do not speak of it to others.

And, yes, just because something couldn't be shown on TV during a certain era doesn't mean it didn't exist back then. As noted, you couldn't show couples in bed together back in the day; pretty sure that doesn't mean that this never ever happened--whether we're talking about the 1960s or the 23rd century.

I'm assuming people said "fuck" on Kirk's Enterprise, too. It just happened discreetly offstage, like people sleeping together.

 

[Captain pl1ngpl0ng]

 

[ralfy]

The fact that they've only used an f bomb just once probably indicates that they only want to use not only occasionally but on the appropriate moments.

More like inappropriate. Then again, the whole scene for me sounded like a secondary school presentation, so I might be wrong. :-)

Hey, we saw nobody in TOS order a burrito, so that must mean nobody in the 23rd century nobody eats them anymore. So, if DISCO suddenly has characters craving for a burrito it's a WORLD DESTROYING anachronism.

Actually, I found it funny. They should do more of that.

I wonder how many TWIN PEAKS fans were put off when Lynch and Frost had characters dropping f bombs when we never saw them do that in the original ABC show.

Twin Peaks? I profanity would be the least shocking thing about it.