Then that would've defeated the point of the series, which was to see things from the perspective of Babylon 5—an epic war writ small from the lens of this space station.
Babylon 5
- Thread starter Kail
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Then that would've defeated the point of the series, which was to see things from the perspective of Babylon 5—an epic war writ small from the lens of this space station.
Not if they only cut to Earth and had a scene with Clark every once in a while. I didn't mean he should become the focus of the show, I agree that the station should be, I'm just saying that we should have seen Clark give his views more often than we did. For example, why did he hate aliens so much? A scene here and there showing that would have been fine.
I don't think that was necessary, some poeple just hate people who are different (and that's just amongest us humans). But B5 was set 10 years after a war in which the Minbari were attempting genocide. Not a massive step to think some might take an anti-alien viewpoint.
"The rim" in this context just refers to the edge of the Milky Way, so beyond that is the inter galactic void. And no, he's never said what's there because being the ultimate unknown (at least on this plain of existence) is sort of the whole point. Even the First Ones don't know what's out there.
I think in pat that it's also meant to highlight that "old" and "young" are relative concepts. To us primitives the First Ones are like gods, but to Lorien, they're still just children. To the greater universe, even Lorien is just a tiny hatchling, finally leaving the nest.
There's no mystery as to "why". It's pretty obvious that the Vorlons didn't want the younger races to get their hands on technology *millions* of years ahead of where they're at now. They'd wipe themselves and each other out inside of a century with that kind of power. The million year time-lock is just a safeguard to make sure that stuff will be available to them when they're ready, not before. As to exactly what it is: it could be anything and everything from the planet killers to time manipulation and the secret of trans-dimensional gateways like the thirdspace gate.
Speaking of Thirdspace the Vorlon memory that took control of Leta made an oblique reference to their many "mistakes". Presumably there are other nasty surprises. This may or may not relate to why Sol went nova in the year 1,002,261, almost 5 billion years sooner than it should. Maybe the decedents of humans & Minbari awoke something very old. Maybe they did something very stupid or maybe an old mistake of the Vorlons came back to bite them in the arse.
As for what Vorlon cities look like, that's sort of glimpsed in one of the short stories. IIRC it takes place around the time of the telepath war and has a small team discovering the world the Vorlons used to create sentient telepaths. There's shades of Forbidden Planet with the story, so far as there's a lone human inhabitant already there, making use of the abandoned technology. The buildings are much like their ships in that they're organic, telepathically controlled and self-repairing. The architecture itself probably look pretty much like that Vorlon listening outpost we glimpsed in early season 4.
We never saw that because Clark wasn't really the villain. He was a symptom of cultural change and upheaval, not the cause. Focusing on him specifically would distract from the larger message (paraphrasing): the enemy is fear, ignorance and that which says you must hate that which is different.
A really bitchin' party.
I'd settle for an explanation as to why the Vorlon government is said to be an "Empire" when they are obviously nothing of the sort. If anything, it's the Centauri who deserved that title - hell, they even have an Emperor!
I have often wondered if Clark was TRULY anti-alien, or whether he simply used the anti-alien sentiment as a means to an end. He was after all working hand-in-hand with The Shadows, and I doubt he was ignorant of their origins.
Yeah, Or he could have just been crazy like Hitler.
I don't buy that Clark wasn't the one behind his rise to power. One of the scant few times we did see him he said, "I've wanted Santiago dead for so long.....", indicating he wanted to be President (or more likely dictator) and take over Earthgov.
I think it's best that we almost never actually see Clark. Somehow he seems more menacing that way.
It's almost certain that he wanted power for a hell of a long time, and the Shadows turned up at the ideal moment to give him a path to that power.
Nobody is saying he wasn't murderously ambitious, but nobody pulls of a coup like that without *major* support from more powerful parties. Once you cut though the propaganda and the myth-making, it's not hard to see the patterns in history when it comes to coup d'etat. When the righteous army of the people storm the palace gates to lynch the evil tyrant, it's almost always because the army *let* them and they only do that when the "evil tyrant" hasn't been looking after his Generals as well as he should.
When the upstart Prince murders his father and claims his throne, it's usually because said King displeased someone powerful within his own court, who then arranged for the King's Guard to be looking in a different direction the night Kings son pops round for a visit, blade in hand. Incidentally, the only way the crown stays on said Prince's head for long is if those self same people who helped him coincidentally get a sudden bump in their net worth.
No King, no Emperor and no President rules alone. They all need the support of powerful people who control vital resources. Money. Food. Transportation. Armies. Information. Trade. Those people need to be kept happy or the usurper will quickly find out exactly why it was to easy to knock off his predecessor in the first place.
In the case of Clark, he needed the support of people like Edgars and the other Mega-Corp CEOs, of key figured in the military and EarthGov and yes, the Shadows, though the extent of their direct involvement is never made 100% clear. Morden certainly had dealings with the faction of Psi Corps opposed to Bester's people, but whether that was direct control or merely another exchange of "favours" is not spelled out.
IIRC it's established that Morden was part of or at least working for the group behind the Syria Planum incident (also Department Sigma, EF New Technologies & IPX), so when the Shadows acquired his services, they had an instant "in" with them. Given that they were still around by the time of Crusade says to me that the Shadows never tried to take over their operation, merely helped serve each other's interests. Ever wonder how they integrated Shadow tech into the Omega prototypes so fast? Maybe "someone" lent them an owner's manual to Shadow tech.
Clark's ambitions were personal. He wanted to be in charge. He wanted power and he didn't care what it took to get it or keep it. But I don't think he had much of a long term plan beyond "stay rich and powerful until I die happy of old age". The same cannot be said for those that helped sponsor his rise. They allowed him to take power because it served their interests and their goals were clearly much more wide ranging and long term than the ambitions of a petty dictator.
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Or Taco Bell. ;-)A really bitchin' party.
http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-9746
[/quote]I'd settle for an explanation as to why the Vorlon government is said to be an "Empire" when they are obviously nothing of the sort. If anything, it's the Centauri who deserved that title - hell, they even have an Emperor![/QUOTE]
'Cause JMS decided he liked the sound of it. Actually, in the original paperwork, the Vorlons were slated to be much more warlike than we actually saw. But that might explain the planet-killers.
Exactly! JMS has said many times that things are more threatening when they're on the other side of the door and can't be seen.
Just a random thing I realized while I am once again rewatching the show while my mother experiences the story for the first time. I'm not a huge fan of the beginning of the final season even though I understand why things were a bit bumby. Sure, Byron can be annoying and sure, there is that slow start once again, but the thing is - and I am surprised that I haven't picked this up before - we don't really see much of the main characters that we have grown to like over the four years or at least it feels like it. (As a side note we are at the fifth episode Learning Curve.)
Obviously Ivanova is gone so that creates a hole and the new characters like Lochley and Byron take a lot of space. And then there are these one-off's like Mack & Bo and Rathenn & Tannier who take full episodes. For instance you see Sheridan in the first and third episodes, but after that he is in the background. During Learning Curve the first time we see him is in the elevator and then in the end which are just tiny snippets. Garibaldi is pretty much the same while granted he gets pretty good scenes to chew on, but those are far apart and it feels like he is in the background. Same goes for Zack and others. The only episode that feels completely like the old B5 we know and love was The Very Long Night Of Londo Mollari.
Obviously I know very well that this new "status quo" changes and brings the main characters back in the front and also the story starts to pick up steam, but I just thought that I should share this. I think that this is one of those puzzle pieces that just clicks and now I know much better why I don't quite love the fifth season as much as I would desperately like to.
Obviously Ivanova is gone so that creates a hole and the new characters like Lochley and Byron take a lot of space. And then there are these one-off's like Mack & Bo and Rathenn & Tannier who take full episodes. For instance you see Sheridan in the first and third episodes, but after that he is in the background. During Learning Curve the first time we see him is in the elevator and then in the end which are just tiny snippets. Garibaldi is pretty much the same while granted he gets pretty good scenes to chew on, but those are far apart and it feels like he is in the background. Same goes for Zack and others. The only episode that feels completely like the old B5 we know and love was The Very Long Night Of Londo Mollari.
Obviously I know very well that this new "status quo" changes and brings the main characters back in the front and also the story starts to pick up steam, but I just thought that I should share this. I think that this is one of those puzzle pieces that just clicks and now I know much better why I don't quite love the fifth season as much as I would desperately like to.
I seriously think that when the five major races came together on B5 and started speaking to each other, they had to basically draw lots to decide what English words their governments' names would translate into. I mean, isn't it just a bit too convenient that all five races have different names for their governments?
In my head canon i always imagined beyond the rim a bit like the edge of the universe in TNG's "Where No One Has Gone Before". A place where thoughts become reality. Fitting for a place where Lorien brought the dying Sheridan and the First Ones to rest, as JMS always used the concept in relation to death.
About the Vorlon Homeworld and First One Technology: I really wonder what the most advanced FO Tech is being like, as they relate to humans and most of the younger races at least like a human does to an ant?
About Clark: I wonder how fast did the process of changing the Earth Alliance into a dictatorship go and how long did it take the average people to notice the first changes?
About the Vorlon Homeworld and First One Technology: I really wonder what the most advanced FO Tech is being like, as they relate to humans and most of the younger races at least like a human does to an ant?
About Clark: I wonder how fast did the process of changing the Earth Alliance into a dictatorship go and how long did it take the average people to notice the first changes?
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I've always thought that President Clark was one of the best villains on television. And the ironic thing is that he was rarely seen, except in perhaps three or four episodes between Seasons Two and Four.
I believe it took a little over a year, judging from the timeline.
I believe it took a little over a year, judging from the timeline.
It's quite plain from ISN that people were aware of the direction Earthgov was headed in, and they tried to sneak lines of truth between the stories that Clark was allowing to get out. Suddenly it reached the point where too much info was getting out, hence marshal law, the dissolution of the senate, and the storming of ISN.
President Clark was a cartoon character, more effective as an off-screen presence than an on-screen human being. Television history is filled with better villains, both in terms of one-shots and long-term characters.
How long did it take Clark and his administration to make the first laws that restricted personal freedoms and when did they become effective?
A month or two after the beginning of his term as president? Or did it take more time for them?
A month or two after the beginning of his term as president? Or did it take more time for them?
It didn't start out with laws. It started out with pressure. Julie Mussante, the 'Political Officer' sent to guide Sheridan's words and deeds. Nightwatch formed for supposedly lofty reasons that became oppressive - and whose powers were expended when moved to the Political Office. Moving key people into positions where they'd follow Clark's lead - and talk of purging others. In the hearings about Santiago's assassination, Clark's representative claimed 'executive privilege' to deny access to Clark's medical records. There were constant 'reminders' from Clark and his staff about the 'alien threat'. Rumors of 'infiltration by traitors' at the highest levels. Then Martial Law. The Senate Disbanded. It doesn't just take laws. Changes in policy can do as much or more damage.
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