Babylon 5

[BigJake]

But you know that old saw about those that do not learn from history? Yeah...Fun times for all.

Quite. (And I guess it's President Camacho from Iidiocracy or Greg Stillson from Dead Zone who probably qualify as closer to "prophetic," strictly-speaking.)

Anyway, let's all hope people have the sagacity to know how to respond when Bester shows up.

 

[Tim Walker]

I trying to make a link to a TV Tropes article, "Imported AlienPhlebotinum".

Discussed why the Centauri seemingly traded FTL communications/travel (but not advanced weapons) for "art, trinkets, and eccentricity". The real reason was to make Earth dependent on Centauris for space parts.

Turning Earthlings into vassals.

The article also indicated that the Abbai enticed others to join the LONAW with advanced technology (which was obsolete for the Abbai).

 

[RJDiogenes]

Babylon 5 was a wake-up call that was not heeded: A civil war, a war between two extremist ideologies, Byron's insistence on self-sabotage.

 

[Reverend]

I trying to make a link to a TV Tropes article, "Imported AlienPhlebotinum".

Discussed why the Centauri seemingly traded FTL communications/travel (but not advanced weapons) for "art, trinkets, and eccentricity". The real reason was to make Earth dependent on Centauris for space parts.

Turning Earthlings into vassals.

The article also indicated that the Abbai enticed others to join the LONAW with advanced technology (which was obsolete for the Abbai).

Yeah IIRC the Centauri's true intentions were elaborated on in one of the novels. Most likely one of the Centauri trilogy, though it may have been the ItB novelization.

No clue where that bit about the Abbai came from. Possibly one of the RPGs as they pretty made that stuff up on their own. Pretty sure they only canonical background info on them is from the CD ROM and by extension the world building notes DiTillio came up with for season 2.

 

[USS Firefly]

I would really love to read the Centauri trilogy but 25 euro for one book is way too much

 

[Tim Walker]

I would think that, to the degree that the EA is able to obtain alien technologies, that Earth Force ships would tend to become kludges, patchworks. (the Kitsune web site described Narn ships as "cobble works") This might work best if the ships are modular.

With granitic technology from the ISA, I think Earth would likely come up with novel ship designs for this revolutionary technology. Beginning with the Warlocks.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Earth Force ships would tend to become kludges, patchworks.

That's what they always looked like...Earth ships in B5 are not what I would call stylish.

 

[Tim Walker]

Indeed, Mr. Laser Beam.

BTW, the TV Tropes article mentions Stargate and the Tollans. It seems that Tollan tech is too far beyond Earth tech to be readily reversed engineered or duplicated.

Without a lot of help there are probably practical limits to duplicating much more sophisticated technology. Perhaps it is possible to make copies if the other guys have technology that is only somewhat more sophisticated than yours. (comparable to the situation during World War II). If the other guy's latest and greatest is far beyond yours, you might get lucky and get technology that is obsolete or obsolescent by their standards.

 

[David cgc]

By the way, having watched Season 3 again lately, i wonder how did President Clark's rise to power exactly happen? What exactly happened on earth and how did he keep his control of the military, even after the informations about his role in Santiago's death have been released?

It took longer than it seemed. Clark and his cabal had been working for years behind the scenes. There was the background detail in season one with the news story about a scandal behind Psi-Corps endorsing Clark during the presidential election, against their charter (also, a little odd to endorse the incumbent vice-President). And we found out in "All Alone in the Night" that Sheridan and General Hague had been quietly building a counter-conspiracy against anti-alien hardliners being assigned key positions in the military before Sheridan was ever even assigned to Babylon 5. There was also a quick line in "Severed Dreams" noting that Clark had spent the past year and a half promoting people personally loyal to him to key positions in the government and military.

Even without Morden's help, Clark was going to make a move. Maybe he would've tried to pull off an assassination on his own, or maybe he was just going to wait for Santiago to term out and then slide in as his successor. But with the Shadows giving him what he wanted, and then causing the galaxy at large to dissolve into war and providing a conveniently terrifying new force in space, Clark was able to sell his hardline positions a lot more easily than he would've if the season 1 status quo had survived and the biggest problem in the neighborhood was the Narn leaning on small worlds that hadn't joined the League.

Sigh, the President putting a premium on personal loyalty, and being elected despite obvious corruption. Though, honestly, I'm thinking the man himself has more of a resemblance to Cartagia.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

I wonder how the Clark Administration got through with the founding of Nightwatch, Minipax, the Ministry of Truth and the Correctional Centers in a democratic society, as this happened before the coup.

Julia Mussante didn't mentioned that they had big problems with that on earth.

 

[RandyS]

I wonder how the Clark Administration got through with the founding of Nightwatch, Minipax, the Ministry of Truth and the Correctional Centers in a democratic society, as this happened before the coup.

Julia Mussante didn't mentioned that they had big problems with that on earth.

The whole Clark storyline, or rather LACK of storyline was Babylon 5's biggest mistake in my opinion. We should have seen more of him than we did. His point of view should have been there too. I still don't buy JMS' reasoning for why it was done the way it was done.

 

[Tim Walker]

I understand that the EA had home grown interplanetary ships when the Centauri contacted Earth. Pretty much restricted to our own solar system (though one episode had a sleeper ship), and relatively low tech compared to Minbari, Centauri, and some League ships. .

Imported technology was grafted onto Earthling spaceships, in effect.

 

[MacLeod]

I wonder how the Clark Administration got through with the founding of Nightwatch, Minipax, the Ministry of Truth and the Correctional Centers in a democratic society, as this happened before the coup.

Julia Mussante didn't mentioned that they had big problems with that on earth.

Quite easily, he could place yes men in positions of authority. From memory we are told he placed military officers who are loyal to him in positions of authority. He was in control in the media, we are told when the Earth Civil War kicks off, that the media hasn't been able to tell the whole truth. No doubt anyone in the senate that would dare to challange him would disappear. No doubt he also picked up other lessons from previous regimes in history such as the Nazi's.

Just look at what's been happening recently politically, the rise of more extreme policical views in many countries.

 

[Reverend]

It's worth remembering that at the time when the story takes place, Earth is still in a post-war head space. It's been just over a decade since a superior alien force rolled right over all of Earth's military defences before surrendering under what must seem like the most dubious circumstances in the history of the universe. That's a pretty good breeding ground for xenophobia, nationalisation and paranoia.

Also remember that Clark was not the master mind of all of this, just the most visible piece on the board. As we would have seen in Crusade, the people who were really behind it are still there and still pushing that same agenda.

 

[Solariabsg25]

There was still a lot of anti-alien sentiment following the Earth-Minbari War, with Homeguard being the personification of this.

Along with this there were some Earthforce elements who literally believed that they could have taken the Minbari, probably convincing themselves that they were just let down by tactics, technology etc. They also will foster ill-will to the League of Non-Aligned Worlds, seething at the fact that they never lifted a finger to help perhaps ignorant (or conveniently ignoring) the Narn's supply of weaponry.

As to the creation of the Ministry of Peace and Nightwatch, it is so easy to justify security concerns. It should be no surprise to anyone how many people will accept this simply justifying it by stating "Well, you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide".

 

[David cgc]

Also remember that Clark was not the master mind of all of this, just the most visible piece on the board. As we would have seen in Crusade, the people who were really behind it are still there and still pushing that same agenda.

You don't even have to go to the unfilmed episodes to see Clark's movement suvived beyond him. In "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," we saw one of Clark's speechwriters was trying to minimize the negatives of his administration and demonize Sheridan so their party could recover in the next election. Less than a week after Clark's suicide and attempt to destroy the Earth.

And then in one episode of Crusade, we saw Mr. Welles from MiniPax and Nightwatch was still working in government six or seven years after the fall of Clark's administration. I mean, you can at least understand former Psi Cops still working in the post-Psi Corps organization, but Welles should've had his involvement in Nightwatch dogging him for the rest of his days.

 

[Reverend]

You don't even have to go to the unfilmed episodes to see Clark's movement suvived beyond him. In "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," we saw one of Clark's speechwriters was trying to minimize the negatives of his administration and demonize Sheridan so their party could recover in the next election. Less than a week after Clark's suicide and attempt to destroy the Earth.

And then in one episode of Crusade, we saw Mr. Welles from MiniPax and Nightwatch was still working in government six or seven years after the fall of Clark's administration. I mean, you can at least understand former Psi Cops still working in the post-Psi Corps organization, but Welles should've had his involvement in Nightwatch dogging him for the rest of his days.

Those are just small fry survivors of his administration. Z-list minions at best. No, I'm referring to the shadowy group that seems to have tendrils in Psi Corps, EarthGov, IPX and the EA military. Though all roads appear to lead back to EF New Technologies Division, or whatever that is just a front for.

Again, Clark wasn't the really the main player in all of this, just the most visible one and indeed it seems whoever this group really were, they were using Clark and his ambitions just as much as Morden and his "associates". He was useful to them, so they helped sponsor his rise to power and when he was deposed, they evaporated back into the shadows.
Case in point: the Psi Corps endorsement. That didn't come from Bester's old school teeps, but from a new faction that seemed to gain power around the time of the Earth-Minbari War, which was also when certain within Earthforce naturally became obsessed with acquiring advanced alien tech.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

By the way, has JMS ever given a non-joke answer about what is beyond the rim and what the first ones are doing there?

What also would be interesting to know is why the Vorlon Homeworld is off limits for a million years, with all the shadow tech laying around in the galaxy? How do you imagine the Vorlon Homeworld? What do you think Vorlon Cities to look like? And what technology is there that the Vorlons are unwilling to let fall into the hands of the younger races?

 

[Kai "the spy"]

^Well, we've seen Thirdspace, and that was what they didn't keep around under close watch. Also, Planetkillers.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Hobnobbing with their fellow faux-deities or finding an empty galaxy where they can muck around with evolution without any pesky young upstarts for a few billion years?
https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/0786a944-8bc9-47eb-9d63-6aa27ebc364f