Babylon 5

[Gov Kodos]

Yes and well Star Trek didn't have to go there either.

I'm not bothered by Nazis getting more bad press. They earned what they get. Please, don't derail the thread responding to me on this. I don't give a fuck if that Austrian douche bag and his fucking regime gets shat on in every episode on every series made from now to doomsday for all I care. They don't get any posthumous victories from me.

 

[Marsden]

For a more mature audience in the 90s than seems to be the case generally nowadays, it would be viewed as Garibaldi making the comparison -- not the script writer, the script editor, the director, nor JMS. The metacontext is Garibaldi making a sarcastic comment to Sinclair, who likely understands that Garibaldi sometimes make ill-judged, non-PC remarks. I don't recall if Sinclair makes a reaction such as rolling his eyes or raising his eyebrow at Garibaldi's remark but he's probably just glad that Garibaldi doesn't air such views more publicly. In my experience, some people make comments like this all the time without being otherwise overtly antisemitic. It's probably for the best that such dialogue wouldn't get broadcast in contemporary drama as some in the audience apparently lack the mental skills that are required to filter out harmful memes.

Sinclair noded and shrugged as in I agree but what can you do about it. I believe he also said," hmm."
Anyone who says that O'Hare was a bad actor is mistaken I believe. The man could convey so much meaning with out saying anything, but I think that's a big part of the critic's problems, I see that complaint about a lot of similar well acted characters from Sgt. Todd in Soldier to Farmer Hogett in Babe. Not everyone blabs all day long.
And in closing, I'm going to quote the Robot Devil: You can't just have your characters announce how they feel! That makes me feel angry! "

 

[Vandervecken]

For a more mature audience in the 90s than seems to be the case generally nowadays, it would be viewed as Garibaldi making the comparison -- not the script writer, the script editor, the director, nor JMS.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

No. The writer and a strong director can't disown what they have created and hide behind a character, not when it's a statement that does, in some cases and among many reasonable and mature people, raise the issue of an auteur agenda. I don't know anyone, mature or immature, who would view such a freighted, potentially fraught-with-implications statement the way you've just described. And I don't agree with other posters that Hitler must be invoked and no other will do to immediately say "genocide!"

Do I actually think there is an agenda here? Not really, but there is a common denominator with those who might have an agenda. I think it's a subconscious choice on the writer's part that is informed by some learned prejudice, particularly regarding Israel.

 

[Forbin]

You don't think a character can voice an opinion that the author doesn't personally believe? You don't think an author can intentionally write a line for a character that the author thinks that character would say, without the author thinking that way too?

Because good authors can do that.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

The trouble is the seemingly large portion of the modern audience that is dumb as a stone. It's like casting pearls before swine.

 

[LJones41]

Anyone who says that O'Hare was a bad actor is mistaken I believe. The man could convey so much meaning with out saying anything, but I think that's a big part of the critic's problems, I see that complaint about a lot of similar well acted characters from Sgt. Todd in Soldier to Farmer Hogett in Babe. Not everyone blabs all day long.

Michael O'Hare had a reputation for being a bad actor among television critics? Once again, I am reminded as to why I had stop paying attention to the opinion of critics a long time ago.

 

[diankra]

I hate to break it to you, but a lot of critics are overworked. I'd like to think I'd never resort to the easy jokes some critics made about the B5 cast making Gerry Anderson's puppets seem expressive, but I know I did spend more time watching Flash Gordon than writing the funny review (and it was an easy target till it started to get good).
On some books, I feel guilty...ish. A 600 page book probably took a year to write, but it took me five hours to skim read, and if I missed subtleties, then... tell your editor to let you trim it, bluntly!

 

[Jan]

Because good authors can do that.

Can do that, and to a large extent, I think they must be able to do that if they're actually good writers. That said, many times audiences over-analyze something written for only one purpose-to get a point or emotion across quickly and unmistakably. For the most part, no further agenda exists in television writing because there's no time. Particularly true in this case since Larry DiTillio was given the script assignment later than usual due to JMS being ill (per Larry DiTillio's introduction in the B5 script books).

 

[sidious618]

Just started rewatching this recently. A few episodes into the first season. It's dated, and sometimes outright bad, but it's got a hell of a vision, and it is definitely ambitious sci-fi. I think I like it more than any of the Star Trek series. SinWhat I am reminded of is how awesome Sinclair is; I preferred him to Sheridan the last time I watched it, and I think that will be true again. Shame about Michael O'Hare's difficulties.

 

[DonIago]

I feel like it would have ended up being a very different show if Sinclair had remained commander of B5, and I'm not just talking in terms of anything relating to Anna (though see below). Sheridan to me has a much more dynamic personality than Sinclair, and I have trouble imagining Sinclair doing anything as pivotal as, for instance, declaring independence from the Earth Alliance. Then again, IIRC that may not have even happened in the original arc for the series.

If Sinclair had stayed in command, though, I wonder...would Carolyn have been taken by the Shadows, presumed killed, then shown up again to lure Sinclair to Z'ha'dum? I could see that being fairly effective.

 

[Jan]

If Sinclair had stayed in command, though, I wonder...would Carolyn have been taken by the Shadows, presumed killed, then shown up again to lure Sinclair to Z'ha'dum? I could see that being fairly effective.

Not according to the arc memo JMS posted in the B5 script books. In it, Sakai would be mind raped and lose all memory of Sinclair and the only way to reverse it would be to essentially rape her again and he couldn't do it. At that point he and Delenn would have started getting closer.

 

[DonIago]

...no offense to JMS, but I think I prefer my idea.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Isn't that what Spock does to the dying admiral in Into Darkness, basically mind rapes him as he dies?

 

[DonIago]

I would prefer to think Pike gave consent through the link.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I would prefer to think Pike gave consent through the link.

One would hope... But can you do that during a mind meld?

 

[JWPlatt]

I would prefer to think Pike gave consent through the link.

The right to privacy and control of one's body was violated prior to supposed consent. Is that okay?

 

[DonIago]

One would hope... But can you do that during a mind meld?

In novelizations, at least, it's been established that you can. Given that a mind meld is a form of telepathic communion, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to.

The right to privacy and control of one's body was violated prior to supposed consent. Is that okay?

If the very first thing Spock did upon initiating contact was seek consent, I wouldn't consider that a violation.

 

[JWPlatt]

Most colleges are teaching now that consent is required before contact, and ex post facto consent does not alter (or absolve) the initial violation. It was rather bold of Spock to take a peek.

 

[DonIago]

I doubt most colleges are teaching such things in the context of direct mental contact.

I'm not sure Pike was in a position to give verbal consent by that point. It may have been telepathic consent or nothing at all.

OTOH, Pike and Spock may have discussed such possibilities prior to the events of the film.

 

[JWPlatt]

If it didn't happen on screen, it never happened. Any mention in other contexts such as books and comics are merely apocryphal; they don't count. Which is why to this day I still believe that no one in Trek pees or poops.