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Babylon 5 - What might have been *Possible Spoilers*

StarshipDefiant

Captain
Captain
I was reading a different topic on Babylon 5 on this forum, and noticed that someone made a stray comment about wondering how the series would have gone, or wanting to see it have gone on with Jeffery Sinclair remaining a part of the cast. Firstly, I must warn that I myself, have not seen the entire series, I have yet to see season five and the telemovies (excluding The Gathering, which I have seen), so I cannot mention anything from that point onwards, as I do not know it.

Moving onward, the episodes 1x13 "Signs and Portents" and 1x20 "Babylon Squared" play a big part here (So does season three two parters, "War Without End" to some extent), as they were foreshadowing either possibility, what we were originally going to see, and what we did see in the series. In 1x13 "Signs and Portents", (a significant episode for many reasons, it begins what I just mentioned, in addition to introducing Mr. Morden, and foreshadows the Shadow War), a Centauri woman by the name of Lady Ladira arrives to the station. Lady Liadira, just so happens to be a prophetess, and has a vision: the destruction of Babylon 5. More specifically, she warns that she sees death and destruction in addition to fire and pain. Later on in the same episode, she shows Commander Sinclair Babylon 5's destruction. This is a further foreshadow to either path the series was able to take, again from the combination of how early it was in the series (thereby being intentionally done so), and the extensive planing that had gone into the story arc. In 1x20 "Babylon Squared", the crew of Babylon 5 discover that Babylon 4 has suddenly reappeared after it had mysteriously disappeared, and several of the crew go to investigate and are able to evacuate the crew from the station (discovering along the lines this was being done intentionally, to allow the evacuation), and during this time Sinclair and Garibaldi meet Zathras, who seems to recognize Sinclair but refuses to say very much beyond "not the one". The duo also experiences flashes in time, with Sinclair seeing a hopeless battle that is being fought and lost and Garibaldi mentions that he has 'rigged the reactor' while pleading for Sinclair to leave. In addition to all of this, there is an unseen figure in a blue suit appearing throughout the station which Zathras seems to imply is "the one" and at the end of the episode after everyone has left, the figure removes his helmet and it is none other then Jeffery Sinclair, but older. He says out loud that he has "tried to warn them" but that it was "happening as it did before (or something along those lines)".

The season three two part episode "War Without End" (3x16/17) showed that what we, the viewer were seeing, was Babylon 5 itself under attack by the Shadows eight days from the time period the 'present' was in that episode (somewhere in 2260, I think). In this particular episode, the crew receives, and in Garibaldi's case views a clearer video of, desperately calling for help, saying the captain is dead and that they were "killing us!". Susan, in one of her final acts as she pleas for help focuses the remaining station's power to record the attackers (viewers should take note that she's wearing the uniform gifted by Delenn), which are revealed to be shadow vessels. A timestamp investigation revealed it to be eight days later from the episode's present (as I had mentioned earlier), and the crew is able to confirm the fall of Babylon 5.

Moving on, and quite to the point of this topic now (and I must apologize for the long winded intro), had the series continued on with Jeffery Sinclair as part of the cast of characters, the Shadows would have attacked, and destroyed an unprepared Babylon 5 (or it was as such by Garibaldi's tampering, that much isn't made specifically clear). This would have forced Sinclair to eventually steal Babylon 4 somehow moving through time (thus explaining his older look in "Babylon Squared" and his lines of 'I tried...I tried to warn them') to use as a base of operations similar to how it was seen at the end of "War Without End". The series moving in this direction, or intended for this direction is alluded to by Susan's line "We assumed it went into the future" when asked what happened to Babylon 4 (by Sheridan, I believe it was). I believe the reasoning behind this was, Babylon 4 was given heavier armaments and able to move around and use jump points, which would have kept it moving (thus allowing it to be protected from the Shadows) but that part is second hand information I had heard, but I trust the source. I hope that this gives an answer, or an idea that people were looking for, and if it didn't, I must apologize.

In a somewhat related, but different matter Talia Winters was to have a story arc that lead to a transformation into a Psi-Corps secret agent, and have been spying on the command staff and their actions and the events on Babylon 5. When the actress portraying her, had decided to leave, this revelation was used as one of the so called 'trap doors' in episode 2x20 "Divided Loyalties" to drop the character from the show. However, in episode 1x09 "Deathwalker", Talia Winters oversees very a very strange meeting between Ambassador Kosh and an individual named Abbut. It is revealed that Abbut had copied Talia Winter's personality (I think Kosh mentioned something about insurance, I can't remember), and the plan was after the revelation of the sleeper personality (which I believe was supposed to happen along similar events, only later on), Kosh would have used this 'copy' (or back up I think it was actually termed) to restore her to the proper personality. Obviously, with the character being dropped this became somewhat moot, but I found it interesting that it was set up in season one for a potential departure/sticking with the planned storyline with a plausible return in place for either scenario.

I must again apologize for it being so long winded, I didn't really intend for that to happen.
 
The actual original Arc was posted here sometime ago. Essentially the show we got was the combination of two shows, the first being Babylon 5, which plays out much of the first two seasons over five years, the Minbari go back to their warlike ways, and at the end Babylon 5 is destroyed by the Warrior Caste.

The Shadows and Vorlons are fighting each other but the Order/Chaos story isn't present (or at the very least, not mentioned in the notes). There is no civil war here, Babylon 5 doesn't break away from Earthforce, etc.

The second series, Babylon Prime, would follow Sinclair and the survivors as they use Babylon 4 (renamed Babylon Prime) as a base of operations to fight the Minbari, fight the corruption of Earthforce (they are forced to go on the run, much like the planned Crusade second season) and Sinclair & Delenn's child plays a role in the second series.

Don't worry about long posts. :)
 
The actual original Arc was posted here sometime ago. Essentially the show we got was the combination of two shows, the first being Babylon 5, which plays out much of the first two seasons over five years, the Minbari go back to their warlike ways, and at the end Babylon 5 is destroyed by the Warrior Caste.

The Shadows and Vorlons are fighting each other but the Order/Chaos story isn't present (or at the very least, not mentioned in the notes). There is no civil war here, Babylon 5 doesn't break away from Earthforce, etc.

The second series, Babylon Prime, would follow Sinclair and the survivors as they use Babylon 4 (renamed Babylon Prime) as a base of operations to fight the Minbari, fight the corruption of Earthforce (they are forced to go on the run, much like the planned Crusade second season) and Sinclair & Delenn's child plays a role in the second series.

Don't worry about long posts. :)

Huh...that's pretty interesting stuff, vastly different from what I had heard.
 
It's in the Volume 15 script book. I could summarize it, but I'm sure the original thread must be around the TrekBBS somewhere.
 
Here it is:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=53739

As I mention in that thread, this is what the arc looked like before Season 1 went into production. But it isn't "what the arc would have looked like if O'Hare had stayed on the show". Many of the changes were made for reasons that had nothing to do with Sinclair leaving, I'm sure. For example, I speculated that JMS may have decided to include the entirety of the Shadow War in the main series rather than a spinoff in part because of the CG technology being more advanced than what he had initially expected, though that's pure speculation.

There's really no way to know how the arc would have gone "if O'Hare had stayed", and virtually all other "real life" considerations had remained the same.
 
The very phrase "original arc" is misleading. JMS came up with this rough idea in 1986, and it kept evolving along the way, right through production. The arc in Script Book Vol. 15 is just what the arc looked like after "The Gathering" but before Season 1 was produced. There were other iterations before that and others after that. Which one is "original"?
 
I did not read a ton because it was containing some spoilers from season five (or the future, whatever exactly), but some of that is fitting a little more into what i had previously heard before. Interesting stuff, either way this series as we got it was pretty good, and in my opinion is along the lines of how a sci fi series (or any series) should be done. A planned character arc with a beginning, middle and end with trap doors along the way to drop the characters from departing actors, etc...
 
(If Sinclair remained on the show past Season 1 and Talia left for a slightly different reason.)

SEASON TWO

  • Sinclair almost loses his job when President Clark considers replacing him with someone else with a less checkered record but General Hague convinces the President that it would better for Sinclair to remain in his position.
  • Sinclair learns the truth of why he has 24 hours of memory missing and how that is locked to the Battle of the Line when Delenn tells him about the Minbari souls.
  • Just as things are settling down with Garibaldi out of his coma, Delenn out of her cocoon, the mystery that haunted him for over 10 years solved, and his job saved, Sinclair receives tragic news that his fiancee Catherine Sakai has gone missing during a survey expedition and is presumed dead.
  • Sinclair tries to keep his struggle with what happened to Catherine separate from his work and Garibaldi tries everything he can to help his friend during this rough time.
  • At some point, Sinclair finds out Catherine went off the path of her expedition to explore an interesting planet called Z'Ha'Dum and tries to look for more information on the planet in hope of knowing for sure how Catherine died if she died. But the corporation she works for blocks his access to such information and the sources he has gone to get that information by less-than-legal means have been blocked by some force that's determined to keep whatever's going on on Z'Ha'Dum a secret which peaks Sinclair's interest even more.
  • Sinclair is also dealing with some confusing feelings for Delenn which emerged after her transformation. Sinclair finds Delenn more alluring in her new form which makes him uncomfortable.
  • Delenn is given leadership of the Rangers by Draal who sees her as a beacon of light for the times ahead and hopes that one day she will share leadership of the Rangers with Sinclair who he has a feeling has more of a role in what's to come if he thinks.
  • Sinclair and the other members of the Babylon 5 staff are eventually recruited into General Hague's conspiracy to bring down President Clark who is suspected of behind President Santiago's death and may be up to even worst things in his admiration. Acting as Hague's liaison is Captain John Sheridan of the Agamemnon.
  • With the Shadows stepping up more through the Centauri, Kosh develops more of an interest in Sinclair and starts teaching a series of lessons that Sinclair doesn't understand the reason for until he learns that Mr. Morden was a member of the Icarus crew which were according to Earth's records killed in a tragic accident but Sinclair uncovers the Icarus was headed towards Z'Ha'Dum at the time. So Sinclair intensely interrogates Mr. Morden so he can extract some information about Z'Ha'Dum to unlock the mystery of Catherine's fate. Sinclair steps out of his interrogation when Kosh and Delenn tells him the reason why he should let Morden go. That he works for the Shadows who are planning a war that will endanger the galaxy and if Mr. Morden doesn't leave, Babylon 5 will be destroyed by the Shadows to keep whatever information Morden may give to Sinclair from falling into the wrong hands. Kosh reveals to Sinclair that Catherine became a victim of the Shadows when she landed on the planet to explore it and that he has been preparing Sinclair all this time for a leading role in the fight against the Shadows, believing that Sinclair has that potential. So Sinclair decides to let Morden go in exchange for Kosh giving him the real training so he could exact his revenge aganist the Shadows for killing Catherine.
  • In the episode when Talia's brainwashing is exposed, what Kosh planted in her mind in Shadowwalker goes into effect keeping the brainwashed personality from taking over her. Talia learns the truth of what happened to her and suspects that the Psi Corp will come after her once they know that she knows. So Kosh and Lyta offer her to hide in the Vorlon homeworld in the meantime. Talia accepts and says goodbye to her friends (Talia will return in future seasons.)
  • Sinclair grants asylum for poor, old G'Kar after the Narn-Centauri War comes to a blood end and is shocked when Earth forms an alliance with the Centauri instead of with the beaten, oppressed Narns. But Sinclair promises to help G'Kar with or without his government's permission and becomes a leader of the newly formed Army of Light alongside Delenn.
What do you think?
 
Yeah some of it seems to sound like that, and I was under the impression it was supposed to be different, and yet...at the same time, the trap doors were designed to keep the major elements the same with the changes in characters. Interesting, John Sheridan connection irregardless being on the station or not. Either way, I still like that, and would have enjoyed that as well as what we got.
 
^Just sounds like season two with Sinclair instead of Sheridan, and Catherine in place of Anna.
Which was a trifle obvious even when watching the show - that Anna was filling the Sakai role (originally the Caroline role, of course) and Sheridan was following in Sinclair's footsteps with Delenn.

After all, somebody got married in "Parliament of Dreams", and who was that? ;)
 
^ G'Kar & Londo, obviously. ;)

As for "Sakai = Anna", that's not 100% accurate since Sakai wasn't there when the Shadows were awoken. Remember that Morden was on the station in 'Signs & Portents' and later in 'Chrysalis' Kosh told Delenn (via Lennier) that the Shadows had returned to Z'ha'dum already, all the while Sakai was still on the station.
Perhaps one of her later assignments would have lead her to stumble on an already awake Z'ha'dum and get's captured & CPU'ed, but that would be odd since I can't see Universal Terraform sending a ship out to the rim without IPX hearing about it...but then I suppose they would have and that's how Catherine would have been captured instead of blown out of the sky.
 
Wasn't JMS' original idea for the ending to be Sinclair, fishing in a pond somewhere?
That's the last scene in the synopsis that was in Volume 15, yes.

While I generally much prefer the B5 we got as opposed to the synopsis, I almost wish that Delenn would have stayed more alien as it appeared she would have in the synopsis.

Jan
 
Didn't JMS toy with the idea of Delenn being male? I read somewhere that was the intent during "The Gathering", but got dropped during the making of that.

As for "Sakai = Anna", that's not 100% accurate
Sure it is. JMS just tweaked the story, and obviously decided the comparison would be less obvious if Sheridan's wife was already dead rather then establish yet a third character who fit the bill of Sakai and her predecessor. She'd still have wound up serving basically the same purpose.

If anything Sheridan himself necessitated a much larger shift, with all the prophetic stuff about Sinclair having to now be of secondary import.
 
Yes, in early conceptions of the character Delenn was male, and originally she was supposed to be more androgynous when "The Gathering" was produced. That's why Mira Furlan's makeup was more exotic, and they played around with altering her voice as well before deciding that her natural voice sounded best.

I found a site that had some info about the early development of the series once, but I'd have to look it up again.
 
The very phrase "original arc" is misleading. JMS came up with this rough idea in 1986, and it kept evolving along the way, right through production. The arc in Script Book Vol. 15 is just what the arc looked like after "The Gathering" but before Season 1 was produced. There were other iterations before that and others after that. Which one is "original"?

I think it's pretty telling that the Season 1 in the memo matches the aired Season 1 very very closely and immediately goes off in a different direction in Season 2.

Basically, it sounds like the changes made when they switched from Sinclair to Sheridan were a lot LOT more radical than previously thought. It was basically a completely new arc.

The changes were a little (ok a lot) undersold by JMS at the time, which is fine... I think he sort of understood the allure and power of 'the pre-planned arc' as a concept and was trying to keep its mystique. It was a fairly impressive job of tying threads from aired-Season 1 into the later seasons, but the stuff in 'old arc' memo matches what we saw onscreen in Season 1 a lot lot more. It'd be really interesting to know if he sketched out the 'new arc' right around season 2 beginning or if he kind of winged it for a little while, building towards the same general 'shadows v vorlon' arc.

Looking at the slower arc progression in the memo, it does seem like the rest of the seasons were originally going to be more like Season 1, many standalones with the arc woven in rather than the almost-serialized fashion of S3 and S4.
 
The Vorlons becoming extinct arc was kinda cool, but I still think the show we got was best. Stretching out 110 episodes into 220 is great if you have a strong following, but they almost got cancelled every single year so it's good we got what we did.
 
Yeah some of it seems to sound like that, and I was under the impression it was supposed to be different, and yet...at the same time, the trap doors were designed to keep the major elements the same with the changes in characters. Interesting, John Sheridan connection irregardless being on the station or not. Either way, I still like that, and would have enjoyed that as well as what we got.

I'm not surprised actually. They really didn't have a lot of time after Michael O'Hare departed. They could have recast Sinclair, created a new character, or adapted Sheridan to fit where they were planning to go with Sinclair. Sheridan having his own story and holding a command rank was the easiest way to go.
 
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