Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[Hyperspace05]

Major Speculation alert:
I always thought the rapid aging was to cover for the fact that the "War Without End" plot was supposed to be the series finale. 20 years into the future, Sinclair has a chance to take B4 back in time. To come full circle after the battle of the line, and actually becoming a Minbari - Valen.

That's always been my speculation about JMS' original plan. It makes sense... IMO

 

[JoeD80]

I always thought the rapid aging was to cover for the fact that the "War Without End" plot was supposed to be the series finale. It makes sense... 20 years into the future, Sinclair has a chance to take B4 back in time.

That's always been my speculation about JMS' original plan.

Well the fighter pilot dies of old age in "Babylon Squared" right there in the first season, and like I said, Joe probably wrote it so it could cover options either way; but the arc-outline says Sinclair, Delenn, and their son all age from the effects of the time travel, because their son was going to be an adult without experiences.

 

[Kegg]

But if Sinclair is Valen, what's the point of his son?

 

[Hyperspace05]

I think the point was that in the original arc draft (according to a poster), Sinclair was not Valen. His son was.

But I still like my theory.

 

[Kegg]

I thought they'd decided that Sinclair was Valen by the time "Babylon Squared" rolled around, though, or do I have my chronology wrong?

 

[chrisspringob]

... that said, i think there was some superbowl/9-11 ratings fiasco that had something to do with that?

Yeah. Some massively important football game had gotten rescheduled due to something having to do with the events of Sept. 11, 2001 so that the game and "Legend" overlapped on the East coast (and part of the midwest?). The were great on the West coast where there was no scheduling conflict.

The NFL decided to postpone all the games being played the weekend after Sept. 11th, thus extending the season by one week, which meant that all the playoff games were pushed back by one week as well, which in turn meant that there would be a primetime playoff game on Saturday, Jan. 19th, leading to the conflict with Legend of the Rangers. (This turned out to be the "Tuck Rule" game between New England and Oakland.)

Sci Fi claimed that they were caught off guard by this, but the NFL's revised playoff schedule was announced in *October*. They had three months to move Legend of the Rangers to a different night, and they didn't. Networks change their schedules around on much shorter notice than that all the time. Someone at Sci Fi was asleep at the switch.

 

[tomalak301]

Not like that was the only time.

As for Sinclair's rapid aging, did we see some of that in Season 1. It seemed like he was starting to get some gray, especially in Mind War. Maybe it was just me, but it did seem like the idea of the whole rapid aging thing came early on.

 

[Harvey]

Was he really getting gray in season one? I don't remember it. If true, though, what a feat, since the episodes were filmed way out of order.

 

[JoeD80]

I think the point was that in the original arc draft (according to a poster), Sinclair was not Valen. His son was.

There is no mention of Valen in the outline that was in volume 15. Sinclair's son seems more like Sheridan in the outline - becomes a uniter of worlds; ends the Shadow War; forms a great alliance. At the end of the outline Sinclair goes to live out his life on a quiet world.

 

[Jan]

Keep in mind, too, that the outline wasn't intended to be detailed, as JMS mentioned in this post:

The synopsis contains only the
broad strokes; not the details, and there's a LOT of odd stuff in the details.

Jan

 

[tomalak301]

Saw a lot of B5 Season 1 tonight (5 episodes). I'm really liking the re-watchability value of some of these episodes (and the series as a whole). Just some thoughts

-I'm less angry about Believers than I was before, but I still don't like the episode. Granted, two faiths crossing together, but if you think about it, the Doctor's faith is to "do no harm." Unless things have changed in the B5 universe, isn't Franklin doing harm by saving the boy's life and going against the wishes not only of his parents, but the kid himself? Also, the whole religion thing was quite heavy-handed I thought.

-Speaking of re-watchability, And the Sky Full of Stars has less rewatchability than I hoped. Perhaps it was just that strong reveal at the end of War Without End which really affected this one or something. Perhaps I missed something, but did the whole scene with one of the members of the Gray Council coming saying if Sinclair did find out, he would need to be killed mean anything in the long run, especially with Sinclair serving as ambassador to Minbar even?

-Survivors is still a great episode. Pity we never saw Kemmer again.

 

[Hyperspace05]

-Speaking of re-watchability, And the Sky Full of Stars has less rewatchability than I hoped. Perhaps it was just that strong reveal at the end of War Without End which really affected this one or something. Perhaps I missed something, but did the whole scene with one of the members of the Gray Council coming saying if Sinclair did find out, he would need to be killed mean anything in the long run, especially with Sinclair serving as ambassador to Minbar even?

Great episode, but I agree that the last scene with the grey council member just doesn't seem to match the larger story - as it developed. But without Sinclair leaving, who knows what would have happened. Sinclair might have met a lot of resistance from the Minbari warrior caste.

 

[tomalak301]

-Speaking of re-watchability, And the Sky Full of Stars has less rewatchability than I hoped. Perhaps it was just that strong reveal at the end of War Without End which really affected this one or something. Perhaps I missed something, but did the whole scene with one of the members of the Gray Council coming saying if Sinclair did find out, he would need to be killed mean anything in the long run, especially with Sinclair serving as ambassador to Minbar even?

Great episode, but I agree that the last scene with the grey council member just doesn't seem to match the larger story - as it developed. But without Sinclair leaving, who knows what would have happened. Sinclair might have met a lot of resistance from the Minbari warrior caste.

Just so I don't come across as disliking this episode, I really like it, one of the best ones of the season. It just on the second viewing didn't hold up as highly (Since on the first time, I thought it was incredibly awesome) as I would have liked.

I do wonder how much different this show would have been if O'Hare had not left. There's been this ongoing debate about rapid aging and the plan of that in season 1, but I just have to wonder yeah JMS planned the series very well, but you still have to take into account contingincy plans. Someone could leave, the show could be canceled, something unfortunate could happen, things like that. I doubt when he started Babylon 5 that he had planned O'Hare to be out after one season. If he had, he's more of a genious than I think he is, and I wonder what Season 1 of B5 would have been like with Boxleitner.

 

[Hyperspace05]

I can guarantee you that O'Hare (and Sinclair's) exit was not planned. This was one case where his contingency plans had to be activated.

 

[Jan]

-I'm less angry about Believers than I was before, but I still don't like the episode. Granted, two faiths crossing together, but if you think about it, the Doctor's faith is to "do no harm." Unless things have changed in the B5 universe, isn't Franklin doing harm by saving the boy's life and going against the wishes not only of his parents, but the kid himself? Also, the whole religion thing was quite heavy-handed I thought.

My feeling, based on what he's said, is that Franklin's core belief is 'all life is sacred'. Perhaps most of the time that difference doesn't conflict with 'do no harm' but I can see where it could. When it comes to trying to fix things, Franklin will do what he thinks best, even when directly reminded of the Hypocratic Oath, as he was in "A Late Delivery from Avalon"

-Speaking of re-watchability, And the Sky Full of Stars has less rewatchability than I hoped. Perhaps it was just that strong reveal at the end of War Without End which really affected this one or something. Perhaps I missed something, but did the whole scene with one of the members of the Gray Council coming saying if Sinclair did find out, he would need to be killed mean anything in the long run, especially with Sinclair serving as ambassador to Minbar even?

Minbari believe that when you die your soul will be reborn so not all of them think that an individual life is worth a lot. When/if you ever read "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (which covers Sinclair's time as ambassador) you'll see how this attitude plays out. Truth be told, though, that's an after-the-fact rationalization since Sinclair's expendability, like the triangles on Minbari foreheads, all kind of faded away after a bit.

Jan

 

[Mr Light]

I'm watching "Objects at Rest" and man the Sheridan/Lennier scene just continues to drive me insane. Couldn't there have been a better way to stage that scene? Like the White Star gets damaged in the Centauri War and that's why Sheridan is dying on the ship and Lennier leaves him. Maybe combine the two "White Star destruction" scenes from "Fall of Centauri Prime" and "Objects at Rest" into one. Funny how something horrible happens to Delenn on a White Star twice in four episodes like that...

 

[Neroon]

I'm watching "Objects at Rest" and man the Sheridan/Lennier scene just continues to drive me insane. Couldn't there have been a better way to stage that scene? Like the White Star gets damaged in the Centauri War and that's why Sheridan is dying on the ship and Lennier leaves him. Maybe combine the two "White Star destruction" scenes from "Fall of Centauri Prime" and "Objects at Rest" into one. Funny how something horrible happens to Delenn on a White Star twice in four episodes like that...

I'm with you on that one. Of course, I never liked the entire "Lennier puppy love" sidebar anyhow.

 

[D Man]

I must say I LOVE "Believers," at least the main plot. The Ivanova vs. the Raiders plot is really quite dull and takes place when Claudia Christian still doesn't have my attention as an actress*, but for whatever reason, Franklin and the Big Moral Dilemma is absolutely gripping for me every time. I don't really think I could express why it is I like the story so much, but something is in there that gets me every time, especially in Franklin and Sinclair's last discussion. I think overall the plot is a really intriguing alternative to Trek's omnipresent Prime Directive.

*I admit I didn't really warm up to Christian and her character until maybe season 4, but her scenes in "Rising Star" made me wish she was able to come across that brilliantly for the whole run. Oh well, I've been reading this thread for months (and it's been an AWESOME thread ) and other B5 threads long enough to know that there are all sorts of differing opinions on this show. At least we can come together and enjoy the show as a whole, even when we disagree on some of its parts.

 

[Forbin]

Lennier's betrayal was interesting to me because it's a theme I'd tried to visit in my generally-failed attempts at writing. Based on a friend in high school who stole a girlfriend from me. I often wondered, even though we resolved our animosity, would I save him from falling off a cliff or just flip him the bird as he fell? My thoughts on the matter were well-shown in that incident. Only I might not have gone back.

I just wish TNT hadn't spoiled the shock that scene would have generated in first-run by showing it in the goddamn coming attractions the week before!!

 

[Neroon]

When "Believers" comes up in conversation, I frequently mention how it is the episode that very nearly turned me off of the show altogether.

Being a practicing Christian (I'll get it right one day), I'm always interested in sci-fi series and the way they treat religion as a whole, Christianity in particular. This episode at first seemed like just another anti-religious tale, wherein those who practice a religion are portrayed as nothing more than superstitious nutcases. But I stuck with the show, after a couple of friends urged me to do so. Bear in mind I had not yet seen "Parliament of Dreams". Once I had, I was convinced that there was no animosity against religion or religious people themselves. It gave a fair treatment by showing a variety of angles and roles played in the lives of various characters and cultures.