Babylon 5 - I'm finally going to do it

[tomalak301]

The Fall of Centauri Prime

Man what a sad episode this was. Could there be anyone more tragic than Londo Mollari? I can't think of anyone. Here's a guy who did get what he wanted from way back to Season 1's Signs and Portants and it came a very big price, his life. No he isn't dead, but with a Keeper on him and the Drakh hiding in the shadows he might as well be. This episode did a lot. I kept on thinking about War Without End II (Rewatching the scene in which the Keeper was first mentioned) and how Londo blamed Sheridan by saying it was "his war." Now I know what he meant.

This episode was a great way to conclude this Centauri storyline, or at least it feels like it, Season 4 had 3 kinda-series finales . I do wonder though if the Centauri were portrayed like the Germans backwards in a way from the Second world war to the first. I mean they attack many different colonies and the Narn Homeworld showing thier domination and strangth, which leads to the Shadow War. Then in Season 5, they are attacked by forces (The league of nations, or Intersteller alliance here) and are forced to pay reperations pretty much crippling the economy. Seems like echos of World War I to me.

Other things I liked about this episode: G'Kar and Londo's goodbye. I complained in my Season 4 recap that I felt more could have been done with the both of them in terms of forgiveness and lack thereof. I'm very satisfied with how it all turned out. I also liked Lennier and Delenn's scene in the crippled white star. It's nice to finally have a scene with them with Sheridan out of the way. Yeah they had one earlier, but this one felt more intimate and more "old-school" B5.

I hope we see Londo again, but I doubt it considering the flashbacks. Things feel like they are slowly wrapping up, and it seems like Londo's storyline is done, and we know what happens after that. I just wonder how G'Kar loses his eye again (Coming of Shadows Dream, not a spoiler ).

 

[Hyperspace05]

Other things I liked about this episode: G'Kar and Londo's goodbye. I complained in my Season 4 recap that I felt more could have been done with the both of them in terms of forgiveness and lack thereof. I'm very satisfied with how it all turned out.

Yeah their final scene together is just fantastic. A very tragic episode. This episode is also an interesting contrast to "The Long, Twiligt Struggle" - The wheel of fate has come full circle, and both the Narn and Centauri are worse off than they started.

BTW, movie "In the beginning" shows us Londo again (briefly) ... After becoming emperor.

 

[Mr Light]

"Fall of Centauri Prime" is a great episode but it still pisses me off in some ways. First of all, they're setting up a huge space battle above Centauri Prime that never happens. Second of all, I find it ridiculous that Sheridan doesn't put two and two together from his WWE Flash Forward to explain Emperor Londo's inexplicable behavior. At the very least he could have patted down Londo's shoulders while pretending to hug him! It just felt like the character was made stupid so that Londo stays in that position for 20 years.

 

[The Evil Dead]

"Mollari...Understand, I can never forgive your people for they did to my world. My people can never forgive your people. But I...can forgive....you."
- G'Kar, The Fall of Centauri Prime

That has to be one of my very favorite moments of the entire series.

 

[Forbin]

Movements of Fire and Shadow

Holy Freaking Shit.

So a third party is orchestrating the war, and now the Drazi and Narn ships are attacking Centauri Prime. I'm really not sure there is more to be said about this episode than that, so onto the next one.

This was the cliffhanger for the mid-season break when TNT first aired it. We had to wait MONTHS for the next episode after this!

 

[Mal]

And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder

As for the end with Delenn talking about the Candle representing life, I found that to be a beautiful, and very sad ending.

We are all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars. Molecules that do not understand politics, or polices, or differences. Over a billion years, we foolish molecules forgot who we are and where we came from. In desperate acts of ego, we give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps, and pretend that our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that lives on inside of us. The spark, that tells us, you should know better. The flame also reminds us, that life is precious, as each flame is unique and when it goes out, it's gone forever. There will never be another quite like it. So many candles will go out tonight. I wonder sometimes, if we can see anything at all.

 

[tomalak301]

"Fall of Centauri Prime" is a great episode but it still pisses me off in some ways. First of all, they're setting up a huge space battle above Centauri Prime that never happens. Second of all, I find it ridiculous that Sheridan doesn't put two and two together from his WWE Flash Forward to explain Emperor Londo's inexplicable behavior. At the very least he could have patted down Londo's shoulders while pretending to hug him! It just felt like the character was made stupid so that Londo stays in that position for 20 years.

Sheridan seemed to forget his experience from WWOE II a lot since it happened. Kinda wish he hadn't.

 

[Jan]

Sheridan seemed to forget his experience from WWOE II a lot since it happened. Kinda wish he hadn't.

There's a message of JMS's that addresses this point:

Y'know, this discussion kinda baffles me to some extent.

For starters, Sheridan was only in the future briefly; he was
being beaten and was confused and not sure how much of it was real; he
doesn't know if his going to Z'ha'dum *changed* any of that
future...the events he did see were 20 years down the road, and there's
no way for him to know (as we know, the audience) what connects to
what...he sees only destruction, and that could have happened two weeks
before (there's no rule that says a capital city can be bombed only
once)...no way to know if the keeper may have been implanted days or
months before. To try and impose a quick understanding of events 20
years down the road on things happening right now, without knowing the
context, would be madness...you don't need a keeper to start a war, or
half our own leaders here would have had keepers on them.

<snip spoilery stuff that tomalak hasn't seen yet>

People are assuming that what *they* know as the audience,
Sheridan knows, which he does not...and assuming that he knows
everything that is to come, or what it means, or how it happens, or in
what context, which he does not.

His memory is not faulty.

jms

Jan

 

[Mal]

There's a message of JMS's that addresses this point:

with all due respect to JMS (and face it: a lot of respect is due), JMS' excuses for some of the plot-holes in B5 - especially S5 - are pretty bullshit. that doesn't make babylon 5 any less awesome, but still, it's not perfect (still, we love it, flaws and all!).

at the very least, from his flash-forward Sheridan knew of the existence of something called Keepers, and that they had some connection to Centauri Prime. once he became President, and once he had a chief of interplanetary intelligence (Garibaldi

Spoiler: or

later Number One,

he should have had them investigate. but he didn't. cause JMS forgot.

actually, S5 fell short in a couple glaring areas. the one that pisses me off most is: who/where was Earth's representative on Babylon 5?

 

[Trubinator]

I think the point JMS was making was that viewers and characters have very different experiences. Knowing what we know, Sheridan should have logically done some things he didn't. But because he didn't have the benefit of all OUR knowledge, he did not do those things. Seems like a logical defense to me ... not bullshit.

 

[eastman23]

actually, S5 fell short in a couple glaring areas. the one that pisses me off most is: who/where was Earth's representative on Babylon 5?

Probably Lochley, just as Sinclair and Sheridan were when they were running the station.

As for Sheridan not warning Londo, he really had no idea when he was during WWE or (as JMS has said), when Londo got the keeper. For all Sheridan knows, Londo already has the keeper and if he tries to warn Londo, he will be painting a big fat target on himself for knowing too much.

Plus, you know, his presumed dead wife showed up on station a few weeks later, he denoted an atomic bomb, died and came back to life, kicked two of the most powerful races out of the galaxy, got captured and tortured, and liberated Earth from a tyrant. Maybe he just forgot.

 

[Mr Light]

He knows that 20 years in the future Emperor Londo has a Keeper on his neck forcing him to be belligerent and evil and foment the cause of war. In "Fall of Centauri Prime" Sheridan sees Emperor Londo being belligerent and evil and fomenting the cause of war. It never occurs to him "Gee, Londo sure is acting strangely all of a sudden... I wonder if they stuck that Keeper on him? Maybe I should pat his shoulders in a friendly manor!" Hell, JMS could just have the Keeper phase-shift away so Sheridan doesn't feel it or something, to preserve the timeline without making Sheridan look like an ass.

 

[Orac Zen]

Plus, you know, his presumed dead wife showed up on station a few weeks later, he denoted an atomic bomb, died and came back to life, kicked two of the most powerful races out of the galaxy, got captured and tortured, and liberated Earth from a tyrant. Maybe he just forgot.

Yeah, he kinda had a few other things happening at the time. He can't remember everything.

 

[tomalak301]

The Wheel of Fire

After this episode ended, I was thinking about the season titles and the correlation between them:

Season 1 - Signs and Portants - Big episode, Introduces a major plot to come
Season 2 - Coming of Shadows - Another big episode, sets things in motion for the Shadow War
Season 3 - Point of No Return - Again, huge episode and a big series changer
Season 4 - No Surrender, No Retreat - Pretty much start the march back to earth.

So here we are at the episode title for the season, and I couldn't help but think on how this one felt so different from the others. It wasn't really a big episode per say, but a lot did happen to the point where it feels like the series is wrapping up. Actually compared to the other "Season Titled" episodes, this one was probably the worse, but that's mainly because those other ones were gigantic to the overall scope of the series. I didn't feel it with this one, and that's not saying it's a bad episode because it certainly isn't but I found that feeling rather interesting.

With that said, I liked this one. I liked that Garibaldi might start waking up and putting his life together. The scene with Lochley (Did others like her because I sure did) and him was great and I thought did rather well bringing their little season arc full circle. I also liked that he is going to put is life together, and help Lyta through that deal about the two accounts as well. As for Lyta, so she and G'Kar are going to go off together. There's a match I didn't see happening, but they do share something in common, they were touched by the Vorlons. Only Lyta is the one with the doomsday weapon.

As for Delenn being pregnant, that's nice. Not much to say other than that.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

No, Lochley isn't typically liked. It's mostly because she was a quick replacement for Ivanova. There's also the fact that she was only around for one season (and only appeared in about half the episodes) so we never really got to know her.

 

[tomalak301]

Pity. Yeah I know she was a replacement for Ivanova, but for what we got, I didn't mind it.

Objects in Motion

Wow I can't believe this series is coming to an end. Only 2 episodes left and I'm already getting a little choked up. They started the season with an assassination attempt, and it seemed like they ended the season with an assassination attempt. That plot I could take or leave. The key to this episode was the emotional heartfelt goodbyes. G'Kar, Lyta, and especially Garibaldi. I choked up a little during his goodbye. I kind of wish he had mentioned Ivanova's name though. Did love the blackmail of the board though, and finding out Tessa (Number 1) is the new head of security for the Alliance.

 

[Reverend]

actually, S5 fell short in a couple glaring areas. the one that pisses me off most is: who/where was Earth's representative on Babylon 5?

Probably Lochley, just as Sinclair and Sheridan were when they were running the station.

TRIVIA TIME: According to the "Official Guide to B5" the Earth Ambassador to Babylon 5 (still an independent state, remember) was Janice Drake. As for why she wasn't on the show; the real world reason might possibly have been that once they switched from Ivanova to Lochley, it would be redundant to have two Earth reps on the station. I believe the guide was made between seasons 4 & 5, so that would be before Claudia's departure. As for an "in universe" reason...maybe she got too close to the same airlock as Ko D'Ath.

 

[Trubinator]

Pity. Yeah I know she was a replacement for Ivanova, but for what we got, I didn't mind it.

Objects in Motion

Wow I can't believe this series is coming to an end. Only 2 episodes left and I'm already getting a little choked up. They started the season with an assassination attempt, and it seemed like they ended the season with an assassination attempt. That plot I could take or leave. The key to this episode was the emotional heartfelt goodbyes. G'Kar, Lyta, and especially Garibaldi. I choked up a little during his goodbye. I kind of wish he had mentioned Ivanova's name though. Did love the blackmail of the board though, and finding out Tessa (Number 1) is the new head of security for the Alliance.

Not to worry. You'll still have the movies, Crusade and The Lost Tales when you finish. But yeah, it's one helluva emotional goodbye for the last three episodes. Pack lots of tissues for the last two especially...

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

You know, I just don't have it in me to actually watch any of the post-series movies. Sleeping in Light is such a perfect finale and really feels like the end. I don't want anything to tarnish that.

 

[The Lensman]

You know, I just don't have it in me to actually watch any of the post-series movies. Sleeping in Light is such a perfect finale and really feels like the end. I don't want anything to tarnish that.

Yeah, it's really hard to top that. I've watched the entire show three times through now. When it originally aired, with all it's wacky scheduling goodness...in repeats on TNT and last year. And each time it's been a different and awesome experience.

The first time, in first run....yeah...I doubt anything else will be as cool a t.v. experience as that.

The second time you catch all the cool little things you had no context for....like going back and watching "The Gathering" and realizing that when Kosh first meets Sinclair, that gibberish is actually the words "Entilza Valen", etc, etc,

The third time, last year, required a little more work because I watched the entirety of televised B5 universe material in in-universe order. So I actually ended the entire run with 80% of the episode "Deconstruction Of Falling Stars" that takes place after "Sleeping In Light". Lotta DVD switching to pull it off in this viewing order, especially with Crusade.

I found that I actually enjoyed the hell out of Crusade a lot. I hadn't seen it since it was on in first run, but I recall that I didn't care for it all that much after seeing B5. This time I really liked it, even the music! Sadly, no resolution for that series.

Ditto for Legend Of The Rangers. I liked it better than crusade when it originally aired.....bought the DVD several years ago and couldn't even finish watching it, instead spending time trying to figure out how I liked it the first time. Third time? I enjoyed it again, and was a little disapointed that we'd never get to see that story play out as well. I don't know if watching all the shows back to back, putting me in a B5 vibe did it or what.

and finding out Tessa (Number 1) is the new head of security for the Alliance.

Outside of the original Star Trek, B5 is my second favorite sci-fi show, despite all it's flaws. Because when it ends, rather than do the Trek thing of saying that "This crew was destined to pretty much always be in this place" like the original one did and the spin-off's tried to emulate.....Babylon 5 said "life and the moments of life are transitory. Strive to get past the bad, but take a moment to enjoy the good because neither will last forever."

So in the second to last episode, the entire main "crew" is completely replaced and everytime I see that it strikes a chord because it's more realistic and it also makes me wonder about what adventures that crew had together. What struggles and triumphs did *they* endure?

Better than seeing a crew of old people on the same ship all their lives. I could barely tolerate it for ST, would not tolerate it for the spin-offs. Glad B5 took the more realistic approach and showed that the adventures on B5 were just the stepping stones to the people they'd eventually become.


And JMS's explanation of why Sheridan didn't recall is spot on. Watching people say "No, he should've remembered" is watching people who spend to much time watching t.v. and being on the internet instead of spending most of their time in the real world. Most folks can't remember much after a few years and those folks didn't have their dead wife come back, survive any number of asassanation attempts, have fight TWO ancient and incredibly powerful enemies, deal with a relentless media smear campaign, toppling a corrupt regime, dealing with rouge telepaths, Bester, being drugged and tortured, not to mention managing a five mile long space station on a daily basis to boot. Oh, and being the leader of an INTERSTELLAR Alliance, the activities of which would make running the five mile long space station look tame.

So no, he didn't remember a few hours where he was beaten senseless while on a mind boggling journey through time. No, this isn't Star Trek where time travel happens every other day and no one thinks twice about it. Real life gets in the way in the real world. Nice for a show to actually kinda be realistic like that.