Babylon 5 and the absurdities of the plagiarism charge

[Akalabeth]

This is a major fallacy behind those who push the conspiracy theory: they deny the right for DS9 to have any similarities, even when those can be proven to have long roots. Moreover, it shows that this is really a turf war. DS9 can't have a station, can't have ships, can't have other races, can't have women officers, can't fight, can't explore religion, can't keep coming back to the same stories, ... .

Long roots? What utter nonsense. Ro Laren was introduced a month before B5 was publicly announced. As far as I know she's the first Bajoran character and the first ground work for DS9. So your long roots are introduced during or after the finalization of JMS's deal with WB.

Let me make a few things clear.
JMS was trying to get B5 picked up for years, including Paramount, they apparently had multiple positive meetings but suddenly stopped.
B5 was picked by WB and announced in Nov 1991.
Ro Laren, the first real tie into DS9 was introduced Oct 1991. DS9 itself went into production in 1992.

The biggest point is though, DS9 came out January 1993, and the B5 pilot came out in February 1993. B5's season 1 also came out a year later in January 1994. The timing means that any weird similarities between the two shows would likely have only derived from the pitch. Unless there was some article or trailer about b5 that paramount saw and looked at.

So what did they have in common, based on Emissary:
1. A "changeling"
2. The wormhole/jumpgate
3. The religiously oppressed race and the oppressors
4. Diplomatic aim of the station (Sisko was ordered by Picard to get Bajor ready for federation membership)
5. The haunted commander who survived a massacre
6. The multi-species, transit hub nature of the station
7. Angel-like aliens
8. The station situated in neutral space
9. The darker tone
10. The prejudiced, female XO (according to the B5 pitch bible)

Now maybe you can say like, 4, 6, 8 are coincides. But the rest? Pretty doubtful. And if they took ANYTHING from the B5 pitch, then EVERYTHING is suspect because it means they actually looked at it when developing the show.

And yeah I know people have already said that TNG already had wormholes. But those weren't permanent features on a show were they? DS9, from a franchise about warp travel, just decides to adopt a permanent other means of transportation that coincidentally is just like B5?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Long roots? What utter nonsense. Ro Laren was introduced a month before B5 was publicly announced. As far as I know she's the first Bajoran character and the first ground work for DS9. So your long roots are introduced during or after the finalization of JMS's deal with WB.

How long does it take to put on an episode, particularly one that requires the design of new alien prosthetics? When you figure out how long it takes to go from story pitch, to writing, to production cost breakdown, to filming, to airing, you will realize it is preposterous to make this conneciton. You are really getting silly now.

Let me make a few things clear.
JMS was trying to get B5 picked up for years, including Paramount, they apparently had multiple positive meetings but suddenly stopped.
B5 was picked by WB and announced in Nov 1991.
Ro Laren, the first real tie into DS9 was introduced Oct 1991. DS9 itself went into production in 1992.

JMS also revised his pitch, which was largely cold after dealing with Paramount, when he went to WB. The fact that he had negotiations with Paramount means nothing.

OK, let's stop this now. Where is the inculpatory evidence that shows actual actions taken on the part of Berman and Piller?

 

[Akalabeth]

You realize the name 'changeling' is actually from our own legends, right? A changeling is a fairy-child left in place of a human one because the human one was believed to be stolen by fairies.

Is Odo a baby? A child? No. Odd then that two TV shows just happened to draw upon this previously obscure legend to apply to grown shapeshifters in their pilot episodes. Must be another amazing, inevitable coincidence right?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Is Odo a baby? A child? No. Odd then that two TV shows just happened to draw upon this previously obscure legend to apply to grown shapeshifters in their pilot episodes. Must be another amazing, inevitable coincidence right?

Hmm ... no changelings in science fiction before 1993?

 

[Farscape One]

Long roots? What utter nonsense. Ro Laren was introduced a month before B5 was publicly announced. As far as I know she's the first Bajoran character and the first ground work for DS9. So your long roots are introduced during or after the finalization of JMS's deal with WB.

Let me make a few things clear.
JMS was trying to get B5 picked up for years, including Paramount, they apparently had multiple positive meetings but suddenly stopped.
B5 was picked by WB and announced in Nov 1991.
Ro Laren, the first real tie into DS9 was introduced Oct 1991. DS9 itself went into production in 1992.

The biggest point is though, DS9 came out January 1993, and the B5 pilot came out in February 1993. B5's season 1 also came out a year later in January 1994. The timing means that any weird similarities between the two shows would likely have only derived from the pitch. Unless there was some article or trailer about b5 that paramount saw and looked at.

So what did they have in common, based on Emissary:
1. A "changeling"
2. The wormhole/jumpgate
3. The religiously oppressed race and the oppressors
4. Diplomatic aim of the station (Sisko was ordered by Picard to get Bajor ready for federation membership)
5. The haunted commander who survived a massacre
6. The multi-species, transit hub nature of the station
7. Angel-like aliens
8. The station situated in neutral space
9. The darker tone
10. The prejudiced, female XO (according to the B5 pitch bible)

Now maybe you can say like, 4, 6, 8 are coincides. But the rest? Pretty doubtful. And if they took ANYTHING from the B5 pitch, then EVERYTHING is suspect because it means they actually looked at it when developing the show.

And yeah I know people have already said that TNG already had wormholes. But those weren't permanent features on a show were they? DS9, from a franchise about warp travel, just decides to adopt a permanent other means of transportation that coincidentally is just like B5?

You realize that "Ensign Ro" was the 3rd episode produced for that season, right? Which means they went into production of that episode in mid-late July, 1991. The script for that was certainly finished at least a week or two before that. That's MONTHS before the B5 announcement.

Your other points...

1. Refer to my previous post.

2. Jumpgate technology is B5's equivalent to warp drive. It cuts time to get to a destination. A wormhole is a DIRECT shot from one end of the galaxy to the other.

3. I'm not a religious or spiritual person, so I tend to equate both in the same way. I can't really say more on this than my previous post.

4. Refer to my previous post.

5. There's still plenty of difference between Sisko and Sinclair. For one thing, Sinclair never really fully let it go, which is one of the reasons why Garibaldi talked to him about his martyr complex. Sisko in fact moved on from that battle.

6. This is really just coincidence. A commerce center is going to attract all types of species.

7. The Prophets were more like gods than angels. If I understand the analogy correctly, angels are servants of god. The Prophets served no one.

8. DS9 was not neutral space. It was smack inside Bajoran territory.

9. A darker tone was a natural extension of where they were, franchise speaking. And by the way, DS9 had a LOT of comedy. They balanced both quite well.

10. A series bible... again, if not shown on screen in an episode or dialogue, it doesn't count.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Jumpgate technology is B5's equivalent to warp drive. It cuts time to get to a destination. A wormhole is a DIRECT shot from one end of the galaxy to the other.

This reminds me: any fans of Buck Rogers in the 25th century here?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

10. A series bible... again, if not shown on screen in an episode or dialogue, it doesn't count.

Another thing that should be noted: the bible JMS gave to WB was not the same one he gave to Paramount, and a bible contains no scripts, not even the pilot script.

 

[kkt]

So what did they have in common, based on Emissary:
1. A "changeling"

But what they mean by "changeling" is quite different. In DS9, it's a sentient being who can voluntarily change at will.

2. The wormhole/jumpgate

Wormholes were a hypothesis in physics back in the 1960s and almost immediately being used in science fiction by writers who didn't want to have their action confined to one star system.

3. The religiously oppressed race and the oppressors

Which work as a metaphor for many oppressed peoples: colonial, religious. Not exactly breaking new ground.

4. Diplomatic aim of the station (Sisko was ordered by Picard to get Bajor ready for federation membership)

DS9 was not primarily a diplomatic station. No ambassadors were stationed there permanently.

5. The haunted commander who survived a massacre

Not particularly original.

6. The multi-species, transit hub nature of the station

Pretty obvious way to set a lot of interesting story lines at your station.

7. Angel-like aliens

Not really that similar. A straightforward converstation with DS9's wormhole aliens couldn't happen, at best you'd figure out part of what an orb experience meant over the next few years.

8. The station situated in neutral space

DS9 was in Bajoran space, not neutral.

9. The darker tone

Not exactly original either. A way to distinguish DS9 from previous Trek shows.

10. The prejudiced, female XO (according to the B5 pitch bible)

It's not so unique to have a woman as one of the senior officers and I'm surprised that in 1993 (let alone 2020) that having a female 1st officer makes the show special. The prejudice she shows is a way of showing a damaged character coming into the beginning of the show.

 

[Farscape One]

Is Odo a baby? A child? No. Odd then that two TV shows just happened to draw upon this previously obscure legend to apply to grown shapeshifters in their pilot episodes. Must be another amazing, inevitable coincidence right?

And by your own admission, the pilot for both is where the similarities may lie. Odo wasn't identified as a 'Changeling' until halfway into season 1... the episode "VORTEX", specifically. That aired mid-April of 1993. "EMISSARY" was filmed in mid-August, and ended 9/18/92. Given Thanksgiving and Christmas break, "VORTEX" was produced before the B5 pilot ever aired. So how could the DS9 people ripoff B5 that term if B5 hadn't even aired yet?

 

[Akalabeth]

Another thing that should be noted: the bible JMS gave to WB was not the same one he gave to Paramount, and a bible contains no scripts, not even the pilot script.

have you personally read either bible?

 

[Akalabeth]

10. A series bible... again, if not shown on screen in an episode or dialogue, it doesn't count.

Do you understand that the allegations are that DS9 took ideas from the b5 pitch bible? That is the entire discussion.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

have you personally read either bible?

No, but that matters because ... ?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Do you understand that the allegations are that DS9 took ideas from the b5 pitch bible? That is the entire discussion.

What's the proof of the actions of Berman and Piller? What is the proof an actual crime took place?

 

[Akalabeth]

No, but that matters because ... ?

Because you’re making claims about it, obviously. So where is your evidence to back up those claims ?

 

[Akalabeth]

And by your own admission, the pilot for both is where the similarities may lie. Odo wasn't identified as a 'Changeling' until halfway into season 1... the episode "VORTEX", specifically. That aired mid-April of 1993. "EMISSARY" was filmed in mid-August, and ended 9/18/92. Given Thanksgiving and Christmas break, "VORTEX" was produced before the B5 pilot ever aired. So how could the DS9 people ripoff B5 that term if B5 hadn't even aired yet?

There’s a basic misunderstanding here on your end. If a show comes out, Aires on tv, and then another show copies them a bit it’s fine- it’s kinda lame but it’s fair game . Works are derivative

But if someone pitches an idea to a company, they reject it, and then use the idea anyway for their own show it’s a problem.

so you saying that the changeling term was filmed before the b5 pilot it actually strengthens my argument, it doesn’t weaken it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Because you’re making claims about it, obviously. So where is your evidence to back up those claims ?

No, J. Michael Straczynski makes claims (without evidence) and you are here to echo them. You need to find the proof of who had what and what was done with it. It is a matter of fact that JMS reworked the pitch. It's in several interviews.

 

[Akalabeth]

No, J. Michael Straczynski makes claims (without evidence) and you are here to echo them. You need to find the proof of who had what and what was done with it. It is a matter of fact that JMS reworked the pitch. It's in several interviews.

What interview? Where’s the link. What was changed between the two pitches? Like if you can’t provide evidence to back up a single claim the don’t bother replying mate. Because it’s the only thing that’ll change my mind.

You don’t need proof of who did what. That’s not how the law works. Jms talked to paramount. Paramount made ds9. That’s it

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

JMS and the Babylon 5 people have made the charge, but they have refused to put forward evidence, only a list of coincidences, all of which are easily explained away.

JMS has put evidence forward. It's in his Autobiography, Becoming Superman. It's out there.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

What interview? Where’s the link. What was changed between the two pitches? Like if you can’t provide evidence to back up a single claim the don’t bother replying mate. Because it’s the only thing that’ll change my mind.

You don’t need proof of who did what. That’s not how the law works. Jms talked to paramount. Paramount made ds9. That’s it

I don't links to the interviews yet. However, there are materials left over from the original 1988 pitch.

https://www.reddit.com/r/babylon5/comments/40lb8p/early_b5_promo_brochure_with_concept_art/

http://www.zteamproductions.com/b5char.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/babylon5/comments/8hm399/babylon_5_the_original_plan_pilot_season_1/

https://b5books.com/babylon-5-scripts-overview/#:~:text=The original 1989 version of the Babylon 5,of "The Parliament of Dreams," featuring Mr. Jones
(notes separate, unproduced pilot)

More to be added later.

Not directly relevant to this question, but since I mentioned it earlier:

Two days later, he seems to be more optimistic about moving past the superficial similarities and allowing the two shows to evolve on their own: "the other show is about a space station at which stories take place;" he writes, "ours is a show about one particular story, one saga, which happens to take place on a space station." (JMSNews 9/25/1992)

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/an-or...novel-that-showed-a-different-way-to-tell-sci

 

[Bad Thoughts]

JMS has put evidence forward. It's in his Autobiography, Becoming Superman. It's out there.

So he points to specific individuals or documents that show Berman and Piller using the materials that had been returned to JMS?