B5: Talia and Ivanona

[glindros]

I thought JMS handled it well. The issue was never thrown in our face, it just seemed like an everyday sort of occurrence.

The part that I find unbelievable, is that after Susan is repeatedly willing to throw away her whole military career rather than be scanned by a telepath, and threatening every telepath she comes near, she bunks up with one. Perhaps Ms. Ivanova was tampered with by Psicorps as well.

 

[Forbin]

That's whatcha call dramatic irony, and interesting writing.

Susan realized that, while the PsyCorps itself, as an organization, was evil, individual teeps are just people.

 

[Angel4576]

Susan realized that, while the PsyCorps itself, as an organization, was evil, individual teeps are just people.

Or at the very least, weren't uniformly evil. I'm pretty sure that despite his self-perceived honourable motives, Bester, veered more towards evil than not.

 

[Neroon]

That's whatcha call dramatic irony, and interesting writing.

Susan realized that, while the PsyCorps itself, as an organization, was evil, individual teeps are just people.

Remember also that Susan claimed to Sheridan that "the day something happens on this station and she doesn't know about it, be worried"(sic). IOW, she was probably quite aware of what Talia did to help the underground railroad of telepaths in "A Race Through Dark Places". That alone perhaps elevated Talia in Susan's eyes, above what Susan perceived about Psi Corps in general.

 

[Mal]

...she was probably quite aware of what Talia did to help the underground railroad of telepaths in "A Race Through Dark Places". That alone perhaps elevated Talia in Susan's eyes...

or it could have just been the boobs

 

[David cgc]

Ivanova says she loved Talia in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark".

She says she thinks she loved Talia. So I guess they must have been really, really drunk in "Divided Loyalties."

 

[Augustus]

Ivanova says she loved Talia in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark".

She says she thinks she loved Talia. So I guess they must have been really, really drunk in "Divided Loyalties."

I agree, she says "think".... that always lead me to believe that nothing had happened yet...

 

[Forbin]

Oh, hell, plenty can happen before you think you love somebody!

 

[Jan]

Ivanova says she loved Talia in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark".

She says she thinks she loved Talia. So I guess they must have been really, really drunk in "Divided Loyalties."

I agree, she says "think".... that always lead me to believe that nothing had happened yet...

I always took that to mean that she thought she was IN love with Talia, not that there was any doubt about what they'd done together while the air recycling system in Talia's quarters was so conveniently being fixed.

One of those little details of the episode that I appreciated later on was the picture of the eclipsed sun we saw just before the camera tilted down to show Talia whose real personality was to be overshadowed by the sleeper personality.

Jan

 

[David cgc]

I always took that to mean that she thought she was IN love with Talia, not that there was any doubt about what they'd done together while the air recycling system in Talia's quarters was so conveniently being fixed.

It was just a little joke. But it is an amusing way to reread the scene.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

Yes they were lovers.

Its kind of jarring though to have every other romance actually shown and then have this one just vaguely hinted at, which happens to be the only gay relationship on the show.

 

[Forbin]

Claudia once said she hoped the writers would have Susan dive into bed on a whim with some bizarre inhuman alien, just to help show how fucked up she is emotionally.

Missed her chance with that ambassador.

 

[ManOnTheWave]

Yes, they were lovers. And Talia turns out to be another factor that isolates Ivanova from having a real relationship.

 

[Reverend]

Something just occurred to me; remember what Talia said happens when telepaths make love? That all the walls come down and they essentially share each other's thoughts and sensations plus what we saw with Byron and Lyta. Anyway, I wonder how "Control" would have affected that. I mean shouldn't Talia have found out about Susan's latent ability? Wouldn't Susan have seen something of Control or her gift from Ironheart? Kosh managed to spot something amiss after all, so it couldn't have been completely hidden.

Claudia once said she hoped the writers would have Susan dive into bed on a whim with some bizarre inhuman alien, just to help show how fucked up she is emotionally.

Missed her chance with that ambassador.

Now THAT is the real reason BSG has no aliens. You wouldn't be able to trust Starbuck not to do exactly that.
Though technically speaking, Ivanova did do it with a Lumati.

 

[Augustus]

Something just occurred to me; remember what Talia said happens when telepaths make love? That all the walls come down and they essentially share each other's thoughts and sensations plus what we saw with Byron and Lyta. Anyway, I wonder how "Control" would have affected that. I mean shouldn't Talia have found out about Susan's latent ability? Wouldn't Susan have seen something of Control or her gift from Ironheart? Kosh managed to spot something amiss after all, so it couldn't have been completely hidden.

Claudia once said she hoped the writers would have Susan dive into bed on a whim with some bizarre inhuman alien, just to help show how fucked up she is emotionally.

Missed her chance with that ambassador.

Now THAT is the real reason BSG has no aliens. You wouldn't be able to trust Starbuck not to do exactly that.
Though technically speaking, Ivanova did do it with a Lumati.

What you mention here is another reason why I don't think anything had actually happened yet...

 

[Nedersong]

I tend to think that the hidden personality in Talia was using her telepathy to condition Susan to love her and change her mind and be more comfortable around her. After all, that's how Talia had come to love Psi Corp, she was conditioned to by her own trainer.

 

[Jan]

Something just occurred to me; remember what Talia said happens when telepaths make love? That all the walls come down and they essentially share each other's thoughts and sensations plus what we saw with Byron and Lyta. Anyway, I wonder how "Control" would have affected that. I mean shouldn't Talia have found out about Susan's latent ability? Wouldn't Susan have seen something of Control or her gift from Ironheart? Kosh managed to spot something amiss after all, so it couldn't have been completely hidden.

Claudia once said she hoped the writers would have Susan dive into bed on a whim with some bizarre inhuman alien, just to help show how fucked up she is emotionally.

Missed her chance with that ambassador.

Now THAT is the real reason BSG has no aliens. You wouldn't be able to trust Starbuck not to do exactly that.
Though technically speaking, Ivanova did do it with a Lumati.

What you mention here is another reason why I don't think anything had actually happened yet...

This post from JMS seems relevant.

From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
Subject: Susan and Talia
To: CIS
Date: 7/10/1996 2:08:00 PM

O. C. Alexander <72623.3472@compuserve.com> asks:
> Indirectly unrelated to this, wouldn't intimate contact make it
> more difficult for Susan to hide any psi tendencies from Talia?
> Also indirectly unrelated, given the previous statements by Talia
> about the intensity of mutual telepath love, do telepaths in
> general view intimacy with non-telepaths as a lesser experience,
> and so typically avoid "normals" as lovers?

Well, a telepath can also hold it back and avoid dipping any
further into someone's mind, if not permitted or asked not to do so.

jms

Given Susan's well known aversion to being scanned, I think that Talia would have not dipped into her mind without invitation.

Jan

 

[Tulin]

It was planned from the start for them to become lovers but Andrea requesting to be let out of her contract put an end to that. In one of the script books JMS tells how he asked Claudia and Andrea if they'd mind if he wrote them as becoming lovers and they went into a clinch that brought the entire soundstage to a halt.

Talia was definitely reaching for Susan that night in her quarters.

Jan

Oh God, why, WHY was no one filming at the time!?!?

A friend of mine went to a con in Sydney with this girlfriend. He fondly recalls how CC chatted up his girlfriend and asked her out that evening.

She DEFINITELY plays both sides of the jumpgate.

 

[Forbin]

Now, if she'd invited him to watch. Or join in...

 

[Reverend]

I tend to think that the hidden personality in Talia was using her telepathy to condition Susan to love her and change her mind and be more comfortable around her. After all, that's how Talia had come to love Psi Corp, she was conditioned to by her own trainer.

I doubt a normal telepath can exert any kind of control or conditioning without a deep scan (remember they spent at least a solid week working over Garibaldi). Also what you suggest greatly cheapens Talia and Susan's relationship as well as her sense of loss.

Something just occurred to me; remember what Talia said happens when telepaths make love? That all the walls come down and they essentially share each other's thoughts and sensations plus what we saw with Byron and Lyta. Anyway, I wonder how "Control" would have affected that. I mean shouldn't Talia have found out about Susan's latent ability? Wouldn't Susan have seen something of Control or her gift from Ironheart? Kosh managed to spot something amiss after all, so it couldn't have been completely hidden.


Now THAT is the real reason BSG has no aliens. You wouldn't be able to trust Starbuck not to do exactly that.
Though technically speaking, Ivanova did do it with a Lumati.

This post from JMS seems relevant.

From: J. Michael Straczynski <71016.1644@compuserve.com>
Subject: Susan and Talia
To: CIS
Date: 7/10/1996 2:08:00 PM

O. C. Alexander <72623.3472@compuserve.com> asks:
> Indirectly unrelated to this, wouldn't intimate contact make it
> more difficult for Susan to hide any psi tendencies from Talia?
> Also indirectly unrelated, given the previous statements by Talia
> about the intensity of mutual telepath love, do telepaths in
> general view intimacy with non-telepaths as a lesser experience,
> and so typically avoid "normals" as lovers?

Well, a telepath can also hold it back and avoid dipping any
further into someone's mind, if not permitted or asked not to do so.

jms

Given Susan's well known aversion to being scanned, I think that Talia would have not dipped into her mind without invitation.

Jan

True. I just wonder if Control would have give her a say in it. But then if she had then Psi-Corp would have found out and they didn't so neither did she. Of course, either way I still have no doubt the two of them growled at the badger together.