B5: Talia and Ivanona

[RoJoHen]

So...were they getting it on?

I liked that their relationship grew from the beginning of the show and that they eventually became friends, but I was thrown off in Talia's final episode when they were seemingly living (sleeping?) together.

And obviously this wasn't explored because Talia left the show, and then Marcus showed up and they had their little flirty thing.

So what was going on here?

 

[sidious618]

They were lovers. I can't really see how they weren't.

 

[RoJoHen]

Well, yeah, but what was the point? I mean, they were really only lovers in this one episode, and then she was gone. And there was never any real follow up with Ivanova (at least that I remember).

 

[Lindley]

Ivanova says she loved Talia in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Rojo, you have to remember that in that era, when B5 was made for the people he was working for, for the audience he was suppling to... Homosexuality was wrong. Abominable really. The FCC are complete bastards as well. His hands were tied. It was a stretch against conformity to get past the sensors what he did... Not that Jadzia Dax and the Borg Queen weren't macking if you changed the channel.

Marcus and Ivanova were not involved or boffing not that she was doing anything else.

 

[Jan]

It was planned from the start for them to become lovers but Andrea requesting to be let out of her contract put an end to that. In one of the script books JMS tells how he asked Claudia and Andrea if they'd mind if he wrote them as becoming lovers and they went into a clinch that brought the entire soundstage to a halt.

Talia was definitely reaching for Susan that night in her quarters.

Jan

 

[Orintho]

Rojo, you have to remember that in that era, when B5 was made for the people he was working for, for the audience he was suppling to...

Era? B5 was made in the 1990s, not the 1950s.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And people were still being jailed in America for homosexuality well into the beginning of this century.

It's network TV, they have to be worried about offending people who do still think it's the 50s, which was ridiculous considering what cable was allowed to get away with.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Rojo, you have to remember that in that era, when B5 was made for the people he was working for, for the audience he was suppling to...

Era? B5 was made in the 1990s, not the 1950s.

In America, remember. Not the rest of the civilised world.

 

[Augustus]

I don't think that they were at that point yet...
It wasn't really even hinted at until this episode... and since it would be Talia's last, I think JMS just threw it in there... to give us a glimpse of what could have happened...

 

[RoJoHen]

Marcus and Ivanova were not involved or boffing not that she was doing anything else.

No, but she totally wanted his nuts.

Of course, he wasn't, nor had he ever been, boffing anyone.

My real beef with this storyline is that this was Talia's last episode. If they were going to be lovers in the greater scheme of things, fine. But I think it's silly for them to have introduced it at all considering they wouldn't be able to continue it beyond that episode.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Although it added a little resonance when Bester brought up her disect... Um, Interrogation.

 

[grabmygoblin]

yeah, they were clearly lovers.

JMS and later Whedon actually stumbled across a negative stereotype in fiction about lesbians by ending those relationships tragically. like much about LGBT issues, this is much different today than it was even five years ago, but it's still somewhat of an issue to watch out for- that no lesbian couples ever live happily ever after in fiction.

Whedon in particular is on record as being unaware of the theme. I'm not sure if JMS was or was not aware of the theme, but even if he was, he didn't let poor Ivanova have any happy endings, and Whedon cannot resist killing his characters, so I hardly think either were or are trying to send any negative messages.

just something to think about.

 

[RoJoHen]

^Whedon likes his characters to be as miserable as possible.

 

[grabmygoblin]

Spoiler: Firefly

I'm STILL in shock about Wash

 

[RoJoHen]

My roommate planned out a whole trilogy of Firefly movies after we saw Serenity. The sequel would actually be happy. Mal and Inara would get together. But then in #3 Inara and the rest of the crew would die, leaving Mal alone on his ship.

I yelled at him and told him he was mean.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'd see Mal ending up with that scary redhead before Him and Inara SUCCEEDED in living happily ever after for longer than 3 weeks.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

JolBridSaff ?

 

[Forbin]

It was planned from the start for them to become lovers but Andrea requesting to be let out of her contract put an end to that. In one of the script books JMS tells how he asked Claudia and Andrea if they'd mind if he wrote them as becoming lovers and they went into a clinch that brought the entire soundstage to a halt.

Talia was definitely reaching for Susan that night in her quarters.

Jan

Oh God, why, WHY was no one filming at the time!?!?

 

[Neroon]

It was planned from the start for them to become lovers but Andrea requesting to be let out of her contract put an end to that. In one of the script books JMS tells how he asked Claudia and Andrea if they'd mind if he wrote them as becoming lovers and they went into a clinch that brought the entire soundstage to a halt.

Talia was definitely reaching for Susan that night in her quarters.

Jan

Oh God, why, WHY was no one filming at the time!?!?

Would YOU have been able to keep operating the camera, if you'd been there?