Avengers: Age of Ultron- Grading & Discussion (spoilerific)
- Thread starter Ethros
- Start date
The back story of Natasha in the film pretty much WAS what was stated in marvel comics over the years. The original was that she was orphaned in WWII - was effectively adopted by a Russian soldier, and as she grew up attracted the attention of Soviet intelligence and was selected for pretty much the program they depicted in the film - and becoming a premier spy for the KGB. (Her original birthdate is circa 1930 or so as she first appeared in Marvel comics back in the 1960ies.)
With her MCU birthdate of 1984 (from Captain America: Winter Soldier); it couldn't be the actual KGB per say as in was shut down in 1990 - but the whole natasha flashback in the film is VERY MUCH in keeping with her original marvel origin story, so I don't see why any Feminist who may know the character from Marvel back in the day would be upset at Wheadon. Maybe they should do some nasty tweets to Stan Lee and Co. and Marvel in general - but it was true to to actual comic book character.
From what I've been hearing they have two issues.
1. Black Widow's line as she picks up Cap's shield from the road, where she says that she always cleans up after the boys.
2. The fact that, after admitting she can't have kids, she said to Banner that they are both monsters. Implying women who can't have kids are monsters.
I've also been hearing some complaints that Natasha claimed in the first Avengers that she had lots of "red on her ledger" but instead of Whedon expanding on that he just gave her mommy issues.
Exactly.
"Some people just want to watch the world(internet) burn."
This fuss over Black Widow is mind boggling and I've moved onto skipping any posts, anywhere, where someone starts to get on their pedestal about what they perceive from the film on that.
Black Widow: This is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
This article gives a nice overview of the problems people had with Natasha in AoU. I can kind see what people are saying, but I didn't have much of a problem with all of this. I think she was still portrayed better, and got more to do than women in a lot of other action movies.
This article gives a nice overview of the problems people had with Natasha in AoU. I can kind see what people are saying, but I didn't have much of a problem with all of this. I think she was still portrayed better, and got more to do than women in a lot of other action movies.
That article is still a bit over the top.
I don't know about you, but that's not what I was thinking when I was watching the movie. Granted I am a guy and have a different perspective, but it still strikes me as trying to see the worst in the movie.
I don't know about you, but that's not what I was thinking when I was watching the movie. Granted I am a guy and have a different perspective, but it still strikes me as trying to see the worst in the movie.
We can feel incomplete while still leading a full life. She had something taken from her and is mourning its loss.
I thought it was a nice bit in a pretty underwhelming movie.
It's worded poorly but her saying she's also a "monster" isn't because she's barren. It's because the people who trained her were so cold and ruthless that they made her barren just so that she'd have one last positive thing in her life to look forward to or potentially have. (A child.)
Again, the wording in the scene is very odd but if you use your brain for a second (that no one in their right mind would call barren women "monsters") you know what she was saying.
As for her line on "picking up after you boys" she was obviously being glib and not implying that a woman's role is to always clean up after men. It's more that her companions are so careless they'd be lost without her.
People just really want to look for things to find problems and sexism in and the "treatment" of BW in AoU is a good example of that. Use your brain for a moment and you can tell they still used her very, very well and continued to use her as a strong female character and not a starry-eyed crushing school girl.
She was a woman who had made a connection with Banner and wanted more from him seeing them both as something of either outcasts or lost souls in their group. She knew Hawkeye was married with kids so he was off limits. Captain America is a Boy Scout and not only seems uninterested in relationships likely they'd butt-heads a lot in any relationship given their vastly different personalities. Tony, well, he's Tony. Not to mention he's with Pepper. Thor is a god and, presumably, already in something of a relationship. So who else in their little group is there to connect with? Banner. And given that she has the "ability" to calm The Hulk back into Banner they likely spent quite a bit of time with one another to develop the technique and that likely required something of an emotional connection.
In the movie she didn't come across to be as a starry-eyed girl in love, but as a passionate woman who knew what she wanted and made a connection with Banner that she didn't have with any of her other male companions.
As for her capture by Ultron, let us not forget that Natasha is still human and has no enhancements in her. From her fall out of the trailer and capture by Ultron she could have easily been knocked out or rendered immobile long enough for her to be put in the cell in Ultron's base where she was vastly over-powered to the point of making escape impossible. Keep in mind while captured she was able to covertly rig up radio equipment to send a Morse message that was intercepted by Hawkeye. She's smart, not stupid, She knew she was out-manned and out-gunned in Ultron's captivity and any attempt at escape would have been suicide.
(All "yous" and similar terms are general and the preceding is not directed at any specific poster in this thread or line of discussion. This post represents my thoughts and general perception on how some on the Internet have taken the (mis)-use of Black Widow in the movie and see them as sexist or otherwise ill-serving to the character. I disagree and think many are looking for things to get upset about. Opening the mind a little bit shows how strong BW/Natasha was used here and how she continues to be a strong female character. It's not disparaging of women to show them as someone in love.)
Again, the wording in the scene is very odd but if you use your brain for a second (that no one in their right mind would call barren women "monsters") you know what she was saying.
As for her line on "picking up after you boys" she was obviously being glib and not implying that a woman's role is to always clean up after men. It's more that her companions are so careless they'd be lost without her.
People just really want to look for things to find problems and sexism in and the "treatment" of BW in AoU is a good example of that. Use your brain for a moment and you can tell they still used her very, very well and continued to use her as a strong female character and not a starry-eyed crushing school girl.
She was a woman who had made a connection with Banner and wanted more from him seeing them both as something of either outcasts or lost souls in their group. She knew Hawkeye was married with kids so he was off limits. Captain America is a Boy Scout and not only seems uninterested in relationships likely they'd butt-heads a lot in any relationship given their vastly different personalities. Tony, well, he's Tony. Not to mention he's with Pepper. Thor is a god and, presumably, already in something of a relationship. So who else in their little group is there to connect with? Banner. And given that she has the "ability" to calm The Hulk back into Banner they likely spent quite a bit of time with one another to develop the technique and that likely required something of an emotional connection.
In the movie she didn't come across to be as a starry-eyed girl in love, but as a passionate woman who knew what she wanted and made a connection with Banner that she didn't have with any of her other male companions.
As for her capture by Ultron, let us not forget that Natasha is still human and has no enhancements in her. From her fall out of the trailer and capture by Ultron she could have easily been knocked out or rendered immobile long enough for her to be put in the cell in Ultron's base where she was vastly over-powered to the point of making escape impossible. Keep in mind while captured she was able to covertly rig up radio equipment to send a Morse message that was intercepted by Hawkeye. She's smart, not stupid, She knew she was out-manned and out-gunned in Ultron's captivity and any attempt at escape would have been suicide.
(All "yous" and similar terms are general and the preceding is not directed at any specific poster in this thread or line of discussion. This post represents my thoughts and general perception on how some on the Internet have taken the (mis)-use of Black Widow in the movie and see them as sexist or otherwise ill-serving to the character. I disagree and think many are looking for things to get upset about. Opening the mind a little bit shows how strong BW/Natasha was used here and how she continues to be a strong female character. It's not disparaging of women to show them as someone in love.)
I doubt it. The credits said Johannesburg and I doubt Ulysses Klaw would be allowed to be in Wakanda anymore.
^^^
Since the brand on his neck was of Wakandian origin I feel it was placed on him while imprisoned there. His smuggling operation however was identified as South Africa. I guess a good question might be how far is the fictional country of Wakanda from South Africa? The comics always seemed to give off that some of it might fall in the Congo, or maybe that's just artistic interpretation I'm feeling.
Since the brand on his neck was of Wakandian origin I feel it was placed on him while imprisoned there. His smuggling operation however was identified as South Africa. I guess a good question might be how far is the fictional country of Wakanda from South Africa? The comics always seemed to give off that some of it might fall in the Congo, or maybe that's just artistic interpretation I'm feeling.
There was a map I saw a while ago that placed it near South Sudan but I have no idea how official that is.
Wakanda is a fictional country so they had to film in Johannesburg.
The credits said one of the characters was named "Johannesburg police officer." That character was played by an actor in the scenes filmed there.
That wasn't Wakanda.
Do we really think the Panther would allow the Hulk and Iron Man to tear apart a major city without intervening?
All the movie says is that, once upon a time, Klaw stole some vibranium from Wakanda. No way was he still operating out of there.
Do we really think the Panther would allow the Hulk and Iron Man to tear apart a major city without intervening?
All the movie says is that, once upon a time, Klaw stole some vibranium from Wakanda. No way was he still operating out of there.
I doubt if T'Challa could have done anything to stop the fight between the Hulk and Iron Man were he there. Since he's scheduled to be in Civil War I guess find out if that Wakanda or not.
Yeah he's still on the run from them. I'm thinking Klaw will be the setup for the Black Panther movie, him being hunted down at the start of it and taken back there.
True: another thing making her a "monster" is her duplicitous nature--also a part of her upbringing. Steve called on her on that very thing in CA:WS. If a person is so deeply rooted in being a professional liar (among other, violent things), that kind of person is not exactly suited to have normal relationships, since that would struggle against what has become her essence.
100% correct...but remember, we are in the world where an emotion-drunk, anti-intellectual (usually, the fringe left wing) crowd yells "injustice" and "mistreatment" about situations where none exist. They have the floor, so to speak, so they will inject non-existent controversies into a film without proving any of their claims. Moreover, if they cannot force their world view to become that of all (despite that being contradictory to their calls for independent thought / recognition), then JW and a superhero film is somehow abusing a female character.
Great observation. How is anyone not getting that?
All true, but to please certain members of the fake controversy / "offended" set, she should have been invincible--incapable of capture, and certainly not needing the help of a man.
This might be pointless considering the 'Use your brain' and 'fake conspiracy' bull, but...
And why does the connection have to be romantic? Why, if there has to be a new romance, does it have to be Natasha? (Well that one I know why, it's because she's the only main female character)
The problem I have with the kidnapping is that, on top of everything else, Natasha is now thrust into the role of damsel in distress, waiting on her boyfriend to save her. That's literally the context that this bit of plot was built around. Sure, she's able to get a message out using the bits of tech left in her cell (which, why did Ultron leave them in there again?) to help save the day, but how is that functionally different from Rapunzel letting down her hair? Banner is still the one to come along and rescue her.
Just to be clear, damsels in distress who help save themselves are fine. So is a character being a mother figure, or a woman in a relationship. It's when you suddenly make your one main female character, regardless of what we've known about her before, a mother, lover and damsel all in one film, while including a plot point about how she can't have kids and bringing up this plot point in a scene where she calls herself a monster, that things get too much.
How is that a great observation? Natasha doesn't have any other options, so she has to get together with Banner? Why?
And why does the connection have to be romantic? Why, if there has to be a new romance, does it have to be Natasha? (Well that one I know why, it's because she's the only main female character)
Considering how popular CA:TWS is in terms of her character, where she's shot and bleeding, has the rug completely pulled out from under her multiple times, and often has to be saved by Steve, I'm not sure where you get this idea that Nat should be 'invincible'. That's not the problem.
The problem I have with the kidnapping is that, on top of everything else, Natasha is now thrust into the role of damsel in distress, waiting on her boyfriend to save her. That's literally the context that this bit of plot was built around. Sure, she's able to get a message out using the bits of tech left in her cell (which, why did Ultron leave them in there again?) to help save the day, but how is that functionally different from Rapunzel letting down her hair? Banner is still the one to come along and rescue her.
Just to be clear, damsels in distress who help save themselves are fine. So is a character being a mother figure, or a woman in a relationship. It's when you suddenly make your one main female character, regardless of what we've known about her before, a mother, lover and damsel all in one film, while including a plot point about how she can't have kids and bringing up this plot point in a scene where she calls herself a monster, that things get too much.
