At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vessels ?

[at Quark's]

(Yes, the thread title is a nod to the thread about building Enterprises )

It seems that in the Trek universe most (or at least several) really advanced races don't seem to build vessels. Of course we have no solid evidence of that, but why would the Q need to build vessels? Or the Organians? Or the Travelers?

You could make the point that we don't know if (some of) these races either came into existence that way, or were so advanced that we can't even recognise their technology as technology anymore.

The Iconians, though, seem closer to our level; their technology is recognisable as such to us. Yet they, too, built their gateways, which would probably eliminate the need for transportation vessels between any two points where the network was established. (That's not to say they didn't have vessels at all anymore).

So, would the Federation at some point become so advanced they needn't bother with starships any more? Or will there always be at least some of them for whatever purposes ?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The beaming method on display in the last movie (by dialog) beaming from Earth to Qo'noS using a device the size of a man's forearm, would seem to eliminate the need for starships.

A fleet approaching Earth? From a few light years away just beam a ton of antimatter into each ship, then go to lunch.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

It's unlikely that every single individual in the Federation would agree to forgo the need for ships all at once, and they certainly wouldn't evolve as one homogeneous unit either. Even if most of the Federation goes without ships for one reason or another, there will probably be ships for some members as long as the Federation is even a thing.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The Federation will stop building vessels after it's overrun by Tribbles.

Seriously.

 

[Deleted 69012]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Ships will probably become obsolete in a series of familiar steps.
1) They fall out of the public consciousness; toy sales fall
2) Someone in a political race desperately claims an enemy government has more of them
3) A starship accident rides the top of the newsfeeds for a few days
4) You're too late to book a teleporter ride home for the holidays and have to take a starship; you tweet how you can't believe they still exist
5) NPR airs a bit about the dying craft and irreplaceable culture of starship operation and maintenance
6) Starships are relegated to museums and nostalgic Netflix documentaries

 

[eyeresist]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

In ENT episode "The Crossing" the crew encounter a non-corporeal species which nonetheless travels in a starship. They are unable to maintain the spaceship (no hands!) so are looking to escape by possessing physical beings.

The question of how a physical species could evolve into a disembodied one is difficult to answer. What is the intermediate stage between humanoid solid and glowing ball of light? Possibly this evolution is forced: advanced beings encounter (or create) a phenomenon that transforms them instantly. This change might be traumatic to individuals and societies; possibly many do not survive the change, lacking the necessary mental and social qualities to adjust.

It's possible that newly incorporeal species might still build starships, if they were in secure about traveling in space without protection or containment. They might build the ships themselves using telekenesis, or they might have a lower species do it for them.

In the case of the ENT episode, possibly the above happened, or possibly the crew was transformed into energy beings in the middle of a space voyage - most inconvenient!

 

[at Quark's]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

In ENT episode "The Crossing" the crew encounter a non-corporeal species which nonetheless travels in a starship. They are unable to maintain the spaceship (no hands!) so are looking to escape by possessing physical beings.

The question of how a physical species could evolve into a disembodied one is difficult to answer. What is the intermediate stage between humanoid solid and glowing ball of light? Possibly this evolution is forced: advanced beings encounter (or create) a phenomenon that transforms them instantly. This change might be traumatic to individuals and societies; possibly many do not survive the change, lacking the necessary mental and social qualities to adjust.

It's possible that newly incorporeal species might still build starships, if they were in secure about traveling in space without protection or containment. They might build the ships themselves using telekenesis, or they might have a lower species do it for them.

In the case of the ENT episode, possibly the above happened, or possibly the crew was transformed into energy beings in the middle of a space voyage - most inconvenient!

On the other hand, there's TNG's 'transfigurations', where it is shown that there's certainly a lot of trauma and people who are not ready for it in society, but that the people who do transform instantly can travel insterstellar distances without a ship, and, generally, our protagonist seems to be at ease with his new-found abilities -- then again, he is in trouble precisely because he is atypical.

I would imagine though that in general, species could dispose with starships as the only means of interstellar travel long before they would become a disembodied super-species. Granted, the Zalkonians don't seem that advanced, but they may be way more advanced than they appear at first sight (letting everybody suffocate on the Enterprise without them being able to block it is no mean feat).

 

[Turd Ferguson]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

I don't see a time where they would. The transporter that can beam you from Earth to Qo'nos works for one person. Granted, it can be perfected to accommodate multiple people, maybe for away missions to Romulus or Vulcan or Cardassia, but would the unit be practical for everyday exploration? You couldn't beam blindly into an uncharted region of space without getting the lay of the land, surveying if some groups are openly opposed or hostile toward other groups on a random planet. You'll still need starships for the groundbreaking exploration.

That being said, how many hostile races has Starfleet and other Federation members encountered in its existence? We've seen countless ships blown up by the Jem'Hadar during the Dominion War. Ships bite the dust all the time while engaging the Borg. There will always be races out there that will be hostile (and possibly make the Jem'Hadar, Borg and Species 8472 look like complete pansies). As long as Federation ships are exploding, there'll always be a need for them to be replaced.

This is also taking into account that by the 26th century, they're already on the Enterprise-J and by the 29th century, Captain Braxton is still having issues keeping his timeship in ship shape. Starfleet vessels will always be death traps (ESPECIALLY if they're named Enterprise )

 

[Timo]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

I guess perfecting of interstellar transporters would be worth the not all that considerable effort. If you can beam one, beaming a million just takes more resources. If you can beam people to unknown planets, you can also beam raw intelligence back from those planets for a preliminary study before sending the people. And soon enough, you aren't just moving people around - you have created a society where nothing and nobody is ever solid or confined to a single location.

As for going noncorporeal, it seems to happen in Trek as a form of biological inevitability. TNG "The Chase" shows that evolution is a sham: at one point of the as such natural process, ancient alien programming takes over and perverts a suitable lifeform into a sapient biped that builds cities, swords and console games. For all we know, this very same programming eventually turns us all into glowing balls of energy.

It could happen more realistically as well, though. Humans ITRW might learn to do the good old mind-interfacing-with-machines trick. Fairly rapidly thereafter, they would find it really practical to split, multiply, share and boost their minds in various ways. Soon, an "individual" might be a collection of host bodies ranging from nanites to mainframes the size of a plane. And extending to bodies that are noncorporeal, for the great convenience: signals traveling through space, subspace or phase space, whatever. And it would almost instantaneously become clear that bodies made of physical matter would be inferior, vulnerable, and possibly all immediately lost in a series of nanosecond-long wars.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

The beaming method on display in the last movie (by dialog) beaming from Earth to Qo'noS using a device the size of a man's forearm, would seem to eliminate the need for starships.

As per Nemesis, a device the size of a rank pip.

But no-one can chart a nebula, or patrol a border, without a spaceship. See Stargate.

A fleet approaching Earth? From a few light years away just beam a ton of antimatter into each ship, then go to lunch.

Shields?

 

[Timo]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

But no-one can chart a nebula, or patrol a border, without a spaceship. See Stargate.

Well, there's a fundamental difference there in that stargates require terminals at both ends. Trek transporters never did. So you can simply beam data from a nebula you never visited, or from a border you have established by drawing a line (okay, a surface) on a map, directly to your databanks, without needing anything at all at the other end. If the data shows something calling for action, you can beam the action there as needed.

Shields?

Not an argument in favor of having ships - those would have to cope with shields, too. Just beam shield-piercing forces (say, phaser energies) directly at the enemy, and then finish him off with further beaming once the piercing is done.

A ship would fare badly in comparison, as the enemy would have something to shoot back at.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

If you could do involuntary, large-scale beaming, you could just beam enemy ships into a sun.

 

[dswynne1]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

You guys have to factor a) power consumption, and, b) spatial interference (natural and otherwise). Then there are those who wouldn't want to beam because they don't like the idea of having their atoms broken down and scattered across the distances of space. That is on top of the fact that you will need have a means to defend yourself, or simply leave the planet quickly, even while the transporters are being occupied. It would not be practical to rely solely on one form of transportation. I would think that once a colony has been fully established, the transport beaming would be practical. For long term, exploration and surveying, never rely on one mode of travel. Besides, IRL, the Milky Way Galaxy is constantly rotating, so the stars and planets won't be in the exact same spot, undergoing the exact same spatial conditions. And since transwarp beaming relies upon hitting the target precisely on mark, I would definitely wouldn't rely just on transwarp beaming. Heck, just take a look out complex the Internet is, and how much support it takes to keep that operation running smoothly. Come to think of it, what would it take for some researcher to develop a way to redirect a transport pattern similar to, let's say, the Gamesters of Triskelion? Or a weird situation where someone beams into another universe, time or reality?

In other words, there are tons of variables at play just to beam someone from ship to planet, and back, so there are many more variables to consider when factoring transwarp beaming, which, as Scotty once said, to paraphrase, "Like shooting a bullet with another bullet at warp speed". Or something to that effect. Besides, starships, Federation and otherwise, and in other properties, are cool concepts in sci-fi.

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Transwarp Beaming = Trek's Vanishing Cabinet = The birth of the laziest writing, ever = Just one of the many problems I have with nuTrek.

Evolution has nothing to do with it. The Federation is an alliance of hundreds of individual species, they all evolve at their own pace (ignoring cross-breading). The adventures of non-corporeal post humans would result in unintelligible story-telling and take us way outside the scope of Star Trek.

I could never imagine the Federation, for as long as it exists, ever abandoning starships. What would be the point of watching that kind of Trek, anyway?

 

[T'Girl]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

What would be the point of watching that kind of Trek, anyway?

This in a way goes to something I've been saying about Star Trek for years, it's a bad idea to make our Heroes lives too easy, and to make the Federation too advanced.

Handing the characters on the show a method of beaming between planets light years in separation (even with some limitations) is a bad idea from the stand point of story telling.

It makes it too easy.

.

 

[at Quark's]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

What would be the point of watching that kind of Trek, anyway?

This in a way goes to something I've been saying about Star Trek for years, it's a bad idea to make our Heroes lives too easy, and to make the Federation too advanced.

Handing the characters on the show a method of beaming between planets light years in separation (even with some limitations) is a bad idea from the stand point of story telling.

It makes it too easy.

.

Of course. What would be the fun of watching a Star Trek show about an era where humanity had progressed to the level of, say, the Q continuum? Everything known, no bad guys left that really pose a threat, etc. etc. etc. Or that show should have to reveal that beings on that level have their own set of challenges they must try to solve to which we primitive humans can still somehow relate...

So I agree that we'll never get a show in which the Federation is 'too advanced'. In-universe though, I could see a time where most starship transport would be obsolete, because hyper-transporters (or any such 'sufficiently advanced' technology) would be much more convenient to go (almost) everywhere you'd care to go.

 

[dswynne1]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Transwarp Beaming = Trek's Vanishing Cabinet = The birth of the laziest writing, ever = Just one of the many problems I have with nuTrek.

Evolution has nothing to do with it. The Federation is an alliance of hundreds of individual species, they all evolve at their own pace (ignoring cross-breading). The adventures of non-corporeal post humans would result in unintelligible story-telling and take us way outside the scope of Star Trek.

I could never imagine the Federation, for as long as it exists, ever abandoning starships. What would be the point of watching that kind of Trek, anyway?

One, Scotty invented transwarp beaming in the Prime Timeline, two, what is the difference between transwarp beaming and transwarp drive (since the point is to get from Point A to Point B), and if you can't write around a MacGuffin, then you shouldn't be in the business of writing. No, I am fine with transwarp beaming, since 'Trek has always been about the story ( i.e. "Wagon Train to the stars") rather than "things".

 

[dswynne1]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

What would be the point of watching that kind of Trek, anyway?

This in a way goes to something I've been saying about Star Trek for years, it's a bad idea to make our Heroes lives too easy, and to make the Federation too advanced.

Handing the characters on the show a method of beaming between planets light years in separation (even with some limitations) is a bad idea from the stand point of story telling.

It makes it too easy.

.

How can you even say that? IRL, we access to better technology today than ever before, and yet we aren't living in a paradise. However, I bet that if you talk to people 100 years ago, or even fifty years ago, they would think we have it easy. It is all relative, my friend.

 

[Jeffe525]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

Transwarp Beaming = Trek's Vanishing Cabinet = The birth of the laziest writing, ever = Just one of the many problems I have with nuTrek.

One, Scotty invented transwarp beaming in the Prime Timeline,

Please check my post. I don't care which universe it was invented in. The technology was introduced in ST09, hence why it was one of my problems with nuTrek.

two, what is the difference between transwarp beaming and transwarp drive...

As it has been employed so far, transwarp drive requires a massive network of conduits and hubs to work (Borg). All other attempts have led to failure, and practical application remains outside of UFP reach (where it should remain).
Transwarp beaming, as used in nuTrek, introduces the possibility of so many loopholes that it renders the act of story-telling virtually pointless. Yes, it's that dumb.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: At what point does the Federation decide to stop to building vesse

You'll still need starships for the groundbreaking exploration.

Traswarped beamed phase-cloaked probes gather telemetry, followed by transwarp beamed visits using that telemetry if desired. Done and done.

This in a way goes to something I've been saying about Star Trek for years, it's a bad idea to make our Heroes lives too easy, and to make the Federation too advanced.

Unless... they're the "bad guys" and all that ease and advancement is actually used to make life difficult for "our heroes".

Imagine a Star Trek that takes place a few generations after Picard's time in which diplomacy has been successful, and the Federation has merged with first the Klingon Empire, and then the rest of the Khitomer Accord powers, and then the Typhon Pact, and the Dominion, and the Voth, and so on, and so on... By the terms of each agreement, giving up its soul bit by bit along the way (in which case, according to what we saw on TNG and DS9, it's starting in kind of a creepy ominous place to begin with). City-sized ships, slipstream drive, transwarp beaming, armies of androids and holograms, and whatever else, all in the control of a galactic government that has explored most of the galaxy - and so has lost focus on exploration - and is now dedicated to "maintaining peace and order". And "our heroes" (a revitalized Maquis, or what-have-you) trying to hide from and tear down all of this if they can to restore freedom, or just to survive outside of the law.