Spoilers Ascension of the Cybermen grade and discussion thread

[Redfern]

...if I'd written or directed it, those drone heads would have landed on people, encased their heads, and converted them from the neck down...

I will admit something of a missed opportunity. I was fully expecting that.

Since that was not the direction they went, a flying variation upon the cybermats would have made more sense.

I can guess the rebuttal, "But, Bill, that would have meant designing and modeling a new cybermat concept. They already had Cyberman models for the 'floating in space' sequences." True, but those helmets were modified to have glowing "thrusters" (anti-grav emitters, whatever). Since mods were required anyway, it seems to me they might have been able to tweak the "Bitey" mesh (assuming one was coded for certain shots in the Matt Smith episode).

Of course, what was depicted did not frustrate or anger me enough to pelt the TV with spoiled jelly babies (can those things actually "spoil"?), so ultimately, it's not that big a deal. I would like to learn what was the "behind the scenes" reason for going with the flying heads, though. Simply for a hoped for "creepiness factor"?

 

[John Clark]

Since that was not the direction they went, a flying variation upon the cybermats would have made more sense.

I was thinking that too

 

[DS9Continuing]

I am curious why the creators seem to be so enamoured with the Cybermen for season finales – seasons 8, 10 and 12 have all now ended not just with a Cyberman two-parter, but a Cyberman-Master team-up two-parter no less.

Don't get me wrong, they've all succeeded to various degrees, and Missy is of course fabulous. I just wonder why the fascination with the Cybermen. I know that there were behind-scenes reasons for the first two – it was the tie-in to Moffat's "military" arc for season 8, and it was Capaldi's direct request in season 10.

But what about in-universe – are we supposed to infer that they are all connected? That Saxon's plot with the Cybermen in "World Enough and Time"/"The Doctor Falls" inspired Missy's first plot with the Cybermen in "Dark Water"/"Death in Heaven", and that Missy's own involvement in WEaT/TDF inspired O's plot in some way? (That is of course assuming O is involved in this and it's not just a coincidence.)

And then there's the Kasaavin... it didn't go unnoticed that the Lone Cyberman's initial appearance in "Villa Diodati" looked very much like the Kasaavin breaking through to this universe in "Spyfall" – just a thematic link or a plot clue? People already thought the Kasaavin were the Cybermen in "Spyfall" because the CMs do have form when it comes to breaking through between universes ("Army of Ghosts"), and wiping a human brain to install an alien consciousness in it is not a million miles from Missy's plot in "Dark Water"...

.

 

[Saul]

The last humans - the ones that successfully made it through the Boundary, that is - are the first Time Lords. Is that what they're trying to tell us?

Explains what the 8th Doctor was on about. Also there have been hints in expanded media that time lords were humans in their distant past.

 

[Romulan_spy]

But what about in-universe – are we supposed to infer that they are all connected?

This episode seemed to hint or imply that the humans that created the Cybermen went on to become the first Time Lords. If confirmed in the finale, that would be an-universe connection between the Cybermen and the Time Lords which the Doctor and the Master are part of.

 

[Mr Awe]

Ok so here's my theory: These humans unwittingly create the first Cyberman (the experiment we see on Brendan is the first Cyberconversion) and fighting a war of attrition and extermination with them. The human survivors who flee through the portal end up in the distant past of Gallifrey and became the first Time Lords. Perhaps they subjugate the native Gallifreyans or maybe they intermarry with them or both? Maybe the first Time Lords were actually half human and half gallifreyan? Also, maybe they wiped the memories of the first Time Lords to erase the truth of their hybrid origins in order to create the myth of the Time Lords?

If correct, I could definitely see that upending the conventional lore of the show. Although, it seems risky to me because it could potentially alienate fans.

This episode seemed to hint or imply that the humans that created the Cybermen went on to become the first Time Lords. If confirmed in the finale, that would be an-universe connection between the Cybermen and the Time Lords which the Doctor and the Master are part of.

Early on, I posited in a thread on this BBS that the Master's line about the big lie might refer to human ancestors becoming Time Lords in some fashion. I think that option is still open.

Humans created the Cybermen. That bit seems solid. They fought a Cyberwar that brought both to the edge of destruction. On the human side, I'm guessing that worked like a filtering mechanism. Who is most likely to survive a catastrophic war? People who are like Brendon because they seem immortal, or at least long lived and able to survive massive injuries. These Timeless Children survive to the end of humanity where they are transport to the past on Gallifrey.

Does that transport of Timeless Children explain the origin of the Time Lords? Possibly. Maybe some evolved/diluted version of the ability of the Time Children to instantly regenerate upon injury into a lesser form where they have a limited number of regenerations and they need to change form. Not all the pieces are clear, but it does seem possible that humanity's Timeless Children become the Time Lords. Or, Time Lords are a hybrid of Gallifreyans and Timeless Children.

Note, I don't think the group who create the Cybermen went on to be Time Lords. More that the Cyberwar basically distilled humans down to their most durable but rare form: Timeless Children.

 

[Redfern]

Likely a stupid question here, but was the "Lone" Cyberman and Brendon's father played by the same actor? Before Brendon's unusual abilities were demonstrated, actually, up to the point when he was shot and fell off the cliff, I thought we might be seeing a "flashback", happy and tragic events before Brendon's father was cyber-converted. Yeah, I know that was the early 20th century, but it was established Cybermen are/were/will be using time travel, so some faction or regiment might have popped into that era, seizing the man. Of course, once Brendon bolted upright, my speculation along those lines went askew. But as others noted, Brendon's father had not aged while his son had, adding another layer of mystery...until it's (hopefully) explained next week.

 

[Evil Robert]

The Brendan sideplot... The biggest issue is all all the adult men looked vaguely the same (so the Old!Brendan scene with the old age makeup - I was having trouble at first even figuring out who he was).

As an old white cis man, I can say all white cis men look the same to me! LOL hahaha...

 

[The Wormhole]

Apathy. That's basically what I felt while watching this episode. I don't know, the main plot with the Cybermen and post-apocalyptic Earth just didn't click. The stuff with the Irish village stood out a bit with me trying to figure out what was going on. Finally about the only part of the episode that had my undivided attention was the revelation that portal or whatever connected to Gallifrey and the Master emerging. Otherwise, meh, completely forgettable episode.

The Orville actually did the flying heads thing first. So I guess the Doctor Who writers copied from The Orville writers.

Yep, that's exactly what those flying Cyber heads reminded me of too.

I am curious why the creators seem to be so enamoured with the Cybermen for season finales

During Moffat's term it was because he was a huge fan of the Cybermen and always wanted to work them into his finales. Even when the finales weren't about the Cybermen they were usually featured in the episodes, like the Pandorica had Cybermen as par of the alliance or Hell Bent had a Cyberman in that crypt on Gallifrey or whatever. True, there were no Cybermen in Wedding of River Song or Name of the Doctor, but in both cases the preceding episode was a Cybermen episode.

was the "Lone" Cyberman and Brendon's father played by the same actor?

No, but I agree they look similar. Yeah, I was all over the place with my predictions with that storyline. At first I thought it was an origin story for the Lone Cyberman, then I figured the old guy on the beach was an elderly Brendan, and now I'm leaning towards the theory that Brendan is supposed to represent the Timeless Child and the others in the village (or at least his dad and the sergeant) represent the Time Lords.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Likely a stupid question here, but was the "Lone" Cyberman and Brendon's father played by the same actor?

No - Patrick O'Kane plays the Lone Cyberman, and Branwell Donaghey was Brednan's dad.

 

[Evil Robert]

I am cautiously optimistic about this episode.
I don't want to grade it yet since a deliberate multi-part episode is only as good as its follow up and companion episodes.

I feel though there is no satisfying way to wrap up all these storylines in the two remaining episodes, which in itself wouldn't normally been an issue, but with the next series a good 18 plus months away, would we even still be caring at that point?

I am cautiously optimistic though. After years of Moffat's bombastic-disaster of endings and Davies duex ex machina endings, I can only hope for a third way.

 

[cultcross]

This was a reasonably solid episode for me, and a lot will rest on the resolution. The Brendan sideplot seemed very random without a tie-in to the main story and I think I would have made that more explicit in this episode from a wish to have the episode make sense on its own. The main story thread was fairly compelling and they made good use of all the usual Cybermen clichés, running down hallways away from terrible aim and the sound of Delete! The flying heads though, really? I laughed out loud, which probably wasn't the intention. There no-longer-lone Cyberman is still great though.

Bit disappointed to see the Master at the end, I am beyond sick of the Master as a character, but I appreciate that's personal preference. If they are doing a 'humans become the first time lords' predestination paradox thing, I wonder why Jack Harkness was trying to stop these events taking place?


Overall gave it a 7. Much better than the dross that became the average this season but not as good as last week.

 

[Romulan_spy]

If they are doing a 'humans become the first time lords' predestination paradox thing, I wonder why Jack Harkness was trying to stop these events taking place?

Presumably, Jack does not that humans become the Time Lords. That is a closely guarded secret that even the Doctor does not know (until probably the finale when she finds out). So all Jack would know is that this lone cyberman will rebuild the Cybermen Empire and destroy all of humanity, except for a handful of refugees. That would clearly be something that Jack would want to prevent.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Extremely hard to judge this episode, given so much, almost everything, in fact, remains unresolved, but it was tense and propulsive enough, and the Cybermen more menacing than they've been in a while - the Stomp-esque percussive theme Akinola employed for them really helped with that - so I think it warrants a provisional 8. Familiar elements - as someone above noted, this is the third Master/Cybermen finale in five series - but well-marshalled. Oh, and a delight to see the 80s Cybs; the friend I was watching with cheered at the sight.

Inevitably, everything rests on part two, and my oh my does it have a lot to handle; possibly too much. RuthDoc, Cybermen, Master, "everything you know is a lie", Brendan and the Garda, maybe Jack, and more besides. It could collapse in on itself. Certainly, I struggle to see how a satisying and genuinely "game-changing" resolution can be reached. Regardless, nice to see some unapologetic focus on hope and determination and just not giving up; refreshing in such a cynical age.

ETA: Was this the first airing of the middle eight in the Whittaker era? Always love to hear it.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I feel though there is no satisfying way to wrap up all these storylines in the two remaining episodes, which in itself wouldn't normally been an issue, but with the next series a good 18 plus months away, would we even still be caring at that point?

I will be. It's not unlike any other arc-heavy series in that sometimes it takes years for a set-up to be paid off. Why should Doctor Who be any different?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I have a crazy idea. The Master lied.

He didn't lie about any of the events he mentioned but it wasn't him that destroyed Gallifrey, he is just riding on that person's coat tails. The person who did that was a vengful Rassilon with a Cyber army.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

What?! The Master might have...lied?!

 

[Evil Robert]

Now folks, we know only the Doctor is allowed to lie! It is in his exclusive rights contract!

 

[Qonundrum]

Rassilon as a generic thug... no thanks.

Master could be lying. He reminded me of the Joker from 1966 Batman too many times, trying to be as lame as John Simm's antics were during RTD's reign. (And people believe JNT's era is too mustache-twirling camp?! Not anymore and not by a very long shot.)

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(I saw a different clip with him in front of the captured Doctor trapped behind some glowing CCFL bulbs... He's good. Sacha really does the threatening acting incredibly well. Why he has to Simm it up and act like a second rate Cesar Romero Joker from Batman 66... oh well. Naturally the incels were thinking rude things about a sex metaphor whereas if you swap HER for a HIM there's absolutely no difference, meaning the sex oink has nothing to do with it. But I never watched the show for 'shipping, much less wanting it at all so there you go - the 'shippers can't have it both ways, especially perceiving something rude that is. not. there. )

Cyber heads whizzing around and killing people instead of capturing to convert them... a clear ripoff of 'The Orville', especially as Kaylon do not bother with converting organic beings to improve their ranks' sizes. Cybermen do when it's convenient. 7 humans aren't many but humans aren't the only enemy species to them. Innovation is one thing but usually good innovation has one sticking to the current story and not going "Oh yeah, that was done in ______ and a lot better too." Even in scripts made before one was born so using nostalgia as a crutch excuse doesn't always fly, sorry for the pun.

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Looks like they nicked the same "disengage warp speed" f/x from 21st century Star Wars and Star Trek too...

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I have a crazy idea. The Master lied.

He didn't lie about any of the events he mentioned but it wasn't him that destroyed Gallifrey, he is just riding on that person's coat tails. The person who did that was a vengful Rassilon with a Cyber army.

One of Titan Comics' multi-Doctor events involved Rassilon teaming up with the Cybermen and building a Cyber Empire. I wasn't particularly fond of it.