Spoilers Arrow - Season 5
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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You want unexpected?
Get Barry to dump him on a dead Earth.
Get Barry to dump him on a dead Earth.
hmm interesting I figured Ollie's will was broken by the torture not that he couldn't actually defeat Chase. I guess I need to rewatch that.
It's what Marc said -- he knew Prometheus could predict his every move, so he brought in a new variable.
It was kind of fun to see her in a mask and hood on Legends, though. I wonder what her superhero name was -- I'm not sure Overwatch would be appropriate. Or maybe she never bothered to adopt one because all her friends were dead and she was working alone.
I'm more concerned with Oliver taking a good long look at himself than his eventual defeat of Chase. But I suspect that the show runners will end up placating the fans by not only allowing Oliver to defeat Chase, but to eventually deny what he had admitted in 5.17 . . . or claim that he had moved past his blood lust. They have a good opportunity here in regard to Oliver's character development, but I suspect that the show runners will not take it.
I have to admit that way back in season one, Ollie's attitude killing made me part ways with the show before the season even ended. It was The Flash that brought me back to the Arrowverse, and I finished season one and binged S2-3 in between seasons.
I was very glad that he took up the "no killing" rule in S2, but never actually expected the show to go in-depth into the consequences of his killing spree.
I was very glad that he took up the "no killing" rule in S2, but never actually expected the show to go in-depth into the consequences of his killing spree.
He doesn't have to "deny" anything. He just has to recognize that Prometheus was wrong to assume he hasn't changed in the five years since then. That's not "placating," that's being true to how the character has been written over the series. You seem to want this to be a much more bloodthirsty narrative than it actually is. He's the Green Arrow, not the Punisher or Lobo.
This is what I mean. "He just has to recognize that Prometheus was wrong to assume he hasn't changed in the five years since then . . . "? Why? Why can't Oliver admit that he still has a problem with a penchant for violence? What's wrong with that? It's been almost two-and-a-half years since Barry had confronted Oliver about his violent streak and penchant for torture. Certainly less than five years. Instead of admitting it, Oliver made excuses for himself. His encounter with Chase is another opportunity for Oliver to take a good look at himself. Why not let him do it, instead of claiming that Chase had been wrong?
But you know what? Chances are the show runners are going to show Oliver claiming that his confession to Chase had been made under pressure and that it was erroneous. The fans will get their wish and it will be "proven" that Oliver had put behind his penchant for violence a long time ago. This is just sad. Here is an opportunity for more development into Oliver's character and it's going to be wasted. I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect not.
Why are so many movie and television fans - especially in various action genres - are wary of protagonist leads being deeply flawed ? These same fans claim that they have no problems with a flawed protagonist and yet they tend to display a good deal of intolerance when these protagonists make a serious mistake or display character flaws. They'll only tolerate these flaws at the beginning of a movie or a television series. But they want the protagonists to get over said flaws as soon as possible. This has especially been the case in the past five to ten years and I find it frustrating.
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Because it ignores the way the series has actually progressed. Of course Oliver has changed over the past five years. That's the whole point of a character arc. Oliver is a hero because he has changed and grown. Prometheus is a villain because he has not. That's the defining difference between them. Oliver started out on a path of vengeance, but came to realize, with the help of his many friends and allies, there was something more important to fight for. He still carries the legacy of his darker past, but that's not all he is anymore. But Prometheus has been stagnant in his pursuit of vengeance for five years. And so he can't understand or accept that Oliver has grown. His stagnation makes him unable to understand that.
You seem to have this notion that the only way a story can be intelligent is if its characters are dark and amoral, that making a character more than that is somehow a failure of talent or vision. I think it's the other way around. Intelligence entails adaptability, complexity, the capacity for growth. Oliver Queen has shown the adaptability and complexity to grow beyond the vengeful killer he was five years ago, to redefine himself as something more than that. Prometheus has not. And that is why he's the villain and why he'll inevitably lose.
Because you're still not getting what I mean when I say that Prometheus/Simon Morrison is wrong. He's not wrong that Oliver has the potential to enjoy killing, and that there was a time when Oliver indulged that potential. He is wrong, and you are wrong, to assume that Oliver is still exactly the same man now that he was five years ago. Objectively, just looking at the evidence, Oliver was at his lowest point psychologically in Russia and in his first year back home. Then, he was the worst version of himself. Since then, he's made friends who've helped him and guided him, and he's fought hard to remake himself and pursue a higher calling. It's not binary. All that potential is still part of his psyche, but it doesn't make sense to assume that nothing within him has changed. We all have both positive and negative potentials within us; it's just a question of which ones we cultivate. The brain is like the body -- the parts of it we exercise more get developed more, while the parts we neglect grow weak. Five years ago, Oliver exercised his rage and vengeance and neglected his empathy and moral compass. In the years since, he's changed his mental workout regimen and worked to develop his more positive potentials instead. It's only logical to accept that he's changed -- not absolutely, not in terms of eliminating his darker side completely, because that's not how human behavior works, but in terms of shifting the balance more toward the positive.
I think that's an entirely bizarre way of looking at it on every level. Obviously the showrunners have never claimed that Oliver has put behind all "penchant for violence" -- rather, they have portrayed him as a man striving hard to transcend and atone for his violent past, occasionally falling short but still striving to be better. Heck, Diggle said as much outright in the last episode -- that no matter how bad his past crimes, all he can do is keep trying to atone for them. That instead of wallowing in his guilt, he needs to do something positive to make amends. Most of the characters on this show have done horrible things but still try to atone for them. That's what drives them to heroics. They're all very flawed and complex, and I find it totally bewildering that you think they somehow aren't just because they aren't embracing their love of murder or whatever.
Manu Bennett
Lian Yu
The fact that Bennett and Law are returning makes me think the writers are really confident in their ending. I'm really excited for Arrow to come back.
What's the point? Everyone wants to believe that Oliver has "evolved" over any penchant for violence, despite Barry's own criticism over two years ago. No one changes that much in two to three years, let alone five.
And Oliver bringing in Anatoly to murder Chase should have been a warning bell about his nature. Instead, people are dismissing Oliver's action as something to catch Chase offguard. Good grief.
And I'm don't think that the only way a protagonist can be interesting is to be violent. I just see it in Oliver.
And Oliver bringing in Anatoly to murder Chase should have been a warning bell about his nature. Instead, people are dismissing Oliver's action as something to catch Chase offguard. Good grief.
And I'm don't think that the only way a protagonist can be interesting is to be violent. I just see it in Oliver.
Nyssa's back too? Yay!
Would have been a shame if the two Ghul sisters didn't get to face each other
Would have been a shame if the two Ghul sisters didn't get to face each other
Nyssa's back too? Yay!
Would have been a shame if the two Ghul sisters didn't get to face each other
That is a complete misreading of my position and proves you're not even listening -- you'd rather just condescend to us and sniff impatiently about how wrong and stupid we are than actually participate in a civil and mutually open-minded conversation. I absolutely have not said that Oliver has evolved beyond any penchant for violence; that's a complete strawman because obviously no sane observer could think that. And it perpetuates your mistake of reducing this to a binary question and failing to recognize nuance. My point is that Oliver is not defined solely by that capacity for violence. He's spent years striving to control it and atone for it, which is what makes him better than Prometheus, who's enslaved by his vengeance and can't see Oliver's greater complexity. Yes, Oliver has it in him to be a killer, but it's the Captain Kirk doctrine -- "We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill today."
Wouldn't work.
Barry was already a deus ex machina when everybody was captured by the League.
Talia likely knows this and would have told Prometheus to prepare against Barry.
(don't ask how he could have prepared)
also returning
for the finale is Nick Tarabay aka Captain Boomerang