Spoilers Arrow - Season 5
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Ollie should take a page out of Matt Murdock's book and start wearing t-shirts that read, "I'm not Green Arrow".^^
Vigilante didn't know Oliver Queen and the Green Arrow were the same person.
That eliminates basically everybody in Star City.
(Except Pike)
They're not incompatible at all.
Flash and Arrow are in the unaltered timeline that the Legends will fix next season.
This just shows what the Legends have done will be fixed.
Granted it would be funny if we get a random episode of the Red Arrow randomly thrown in because of the Legend's actions.
https://www.themarysue.com/fringe-alternate-comic-covers-originals/
https://www.themarysue.com/fringe-alternate-comic-covers-originals/
I never said it did. I was just saying there's no way to twist Guggenheim's words to suggest that Vigilante would be someone we've never seen unmasked. Obviously it could be that a character we've met is actually Adrian Chase with an alias, but that's a separate question.
I think that's trying too hard to twist the meaning of his words. And it's pointless to speculate by actively rejecting the evidence we have. Obviously any hypothesis based on available evidence is subject to modification in light of later evidence, but that doesn't mean a hypothesis should be based on the expectation that the available evidence is false, because that way lies paranoia.
How has he done so? I think it would be far less fun for the man under the mask to be someone we've never seen before. That's just a lazy cheat. It's obviously preferable if Vigilante is a character who's already been seeded and established. And now we're free to speculate about which of the established characters it could be, and that can be fun in itself.Well, remember, "Chase" (Morrison) asserted a strong anti-vigilante stance around the same time Vigilante started showing up and we assumed they were the same person. So there's precedent, sort of.
The Legends "fixing time" is at least a season, if not more, away (as per a statement from its showrunner, Phil Klemmer), which is why the "Arrow and Flash exist in the fixed reality" excuse is bollocks.
As for why Legends stuff is relevant here, what that show did broke the entire Earth-1 portion of the Arrowverse, making the remainder of Arrow's current season, and however many other seasons it has left in the future, completely obsolete and pointless.
As for why Legends stuff is relevant here, what that show did broke the entire Earth-1 portion of the Arrowverse, making the remainder of Arrow's current season, and however many other seasons it has left in the future, completely obsolete and pointless.
You keep trying to apply the assumption of linear time and simultaneity to a story about time travel. Why can't you see the inherent contradiction there?
Because you cannot have Arrow and The Flash dropping 2017, 2018, 2019, etc. dates - which they will - while Legends spends at least a season or more struggling (and possibly failing) to fix time itself, nor can you have Arrow and The Flash continuing to operate pretty much as they always have in a universe where things like dinosaurs, future architecture, and Victorian architecture exist simultaneously, especially since, at least as of now, there's no way for the Legends to get themselves out of this "broken time" reality on account of the Waverider being buried halfway into a Los Angeles street and likely severely, possibly irreparably , damaged, and are therefore stuck in a reality where time itself has been broken and yet you have Barry and his friends trying to meddle with it as if things remain as they are before the Legends created this "ultimate mess" and Arrow carrying on as if nothing is wrong and the entire space-time continuum isn't out of whack.
Obviously you can because that's exactly what's about to happen.
Other people have repeatedly, calmly and rationally, some even at great length tried to explain to you why this isn't such a big deal in the Legends thread, and you've rejected any reasonable explanation out of hand.
Fine, that's absolutely your prerogative, as is your decision not to watch any of these shows ever again.
Repeating the same thing for the fifteenth time across several threads isn't going to change anything. So... move on?
Oh, I'm moving on. Have fun wasting time watching shows that mean nothing now.
We will. Thanks.
Are you watching documentaries? They're COMIC BOOK shows, not the History shows. And just because YOU can't figure out how it can (will) work out between the 3 (4) series at the end of LoT storyline, doesn't mean the shows mean "nothing now" to anyone -- just you, it seems.
Christopher,
I'm not trying to twist anyone's words. It's not that serious. I'm just spit balling here. I do take what some director/producers say these days with a grain of salt because revealing the identity of Vigilante does ruin whatever surprises the creators have in store or the fun some fans engage over trying do decipher his/her identity, looking for clues, speculating, and forth. Plus it retains a mystery about the character. Granted deliberately deceiving/misdirecting is a dangerous move (i.e.Into Darkness) but it can also be well done (i.e. Dark Knight Rises). The misdirect with Prometheus was well done and a nice surprise, so who knows if the Arrow team doesn't have more trick arrows in their quivers.
I don't care for you telling me what's 'pointless' or not. That's a matter of perspective. And what is this so-called 'evidence' you say exists regarding Vigilante's identity outside of Guggenheim's statement?
I don't think it would be less fun if Vigilante was someone we hadn't seen before. I would like to see an Arrowverse version of Chase/Vigilante. And if not Chase, the current Vigilante in Gary Phillips's Vigilante: Southland. I hadn't expected him to be someone we had seen before until Guggenheim's comments. I was perfectly okay with him being a new character. Heck, we got several new characters this season alone-Wild Dog, Dinah Drake, Prometheus, Ragman, Tobias Church, Kovar, Felicity's Helix connection, and that has not been a let down at all to me. I like new blood.
As for Chase's anti-vigilante stance, since I knew the comic Chase to be Vigilante I didn't believe it from the start. To be fair, perhaps that might be the angle they go with Curtis's husband as well in terms of him being Vigilante, but I am doubtful.
I'm not trying to twist anyone's words. It's not that serious. I'm just spit balling here. I do take what some director/producers say these days with a grain of salt because revealing the identity of Vigilante does ruin whatever surprises the creators have in store or the fun some fans engage over trying do decipher his/her identity, looking for clues, speculating, and forth. Plus it retains a mystery about the character. Granted deliberately deceiving/misdirecting is a dangerous move (i.e.Into Darkness) but it can also be well done (i.e. Dark Knight Rises). The misdirect with Prometheus was well done and a nice surprise, so who knows if the Arrow team doesn't have more trick arrows in their quivers.
I don't care for you telling me what's 'pointless' or not. That's a matter of perspective. And what is this so-called 'evidence' you say exists regarding Vigilante's identity outside of Guggenheim's statement?
I don't think it would be less fun if Vigilante was someone we hadn't seen before. I would like to see an Arrowverse version of Chase/Vigilante. And if not Chase, the current Vigilante in Gary Phillips's Vigilante: Southland. I hadn't expected him to be someone we had seen before until Guggenheim's comments. I was perfectly okay with him being a new character. Heck, we got several new characters this season alone-Wild Dog, Dinah Drake, Prometheus, Ragman, Tobias Church, Kovar, Felicity's Helix connection, and that has not been a let down at all to me. I like new blood.
As for Chase's anti-vigilante stance, since I knew the comic Chase to be Vigilante I didn't believe it from the start. To be fair, perhaps that might be the angle they go with Curtis's husband as well in terms of him being Vigilante, but I am doubtful.
What? Saying "Vigilante's true identity is a previously established character" doesn't reveal anything, because there are a bunch of previously established characters. Heck, the only way we can try to decipher it is if it's a known character. What you seemed to be saying before was that you expected Guggenheim to be lying, that Vigilante would turn out not to be someone we've met. Which would take away our ability to speculate as you suggest. So you seem to be speaking at cross-purposes to yourself.
Again, what??? My whole point was that Guggenheim's statement is the only evidence we have at the moment, so it's premature to reject it until or unless we later obtain new evidence that conflicts with it. That's how rational thinking works. You formulate a model based on the available evidence, but you keep your mind open to the possibility of changing it in the future if new evidence presents itself. But you don't pre-emptively change it before you have a reason to do so. As Sherlock Holmes was fond of saying, "It is a capital mistake to theorize in advance of the facts." My point is that, at the moment, we don't yet have any evidence that would justify rejecting Guggenheim's statement. So I take the gist of that statement -- that Vigilante's true identity is someone we've already met -- as my working hypothesis for the moment, with an open mind to revising it in the future if and when new information emerges.
As I already said, there's no conflict there. Some character we've already met could be the real Adrian Chase using an alias, just as "Adrian Chase" was Simon Morrison using an alias.
But it makes no sense to reject the validity of a statement just because it isn't what you wanted to hear. You may not want to believe Guggenheim's statement is true, but that doesn't mean it actually won't be true. In my experience, the universe doesn't shape itself to fit our desires.
Yes, that was exactly my point -- that I assumed it was a cover, because I expected "Chase" to be Vigilante.
Chris,
I'm not rejecting what Guggenheim has said. I said I'm taking it with a grain of salt. I mean just so a week or so ago you had Guggenheim saying we would never see Felicity in a mask, or at least that's what he didn't want to see on Arrow, above a picture of Felicity in a mask (albeit on Legends of Tomorrow). So we're talking very fine distinctions here, since both shows belong in the Arrowverse. And I've pointed out how they've been artful with Laurel not coming back to the show, yet coming back albeit as Black Siren/Earth 2 Laurel.
I didn't say Guggenheim's statement wasn't true, but I'm leaving open the possibility that it isn't, or that it will be tweaked somehow. I don't "want to believe" anything, but I am not above wondering if Guggenheim is holding some cards close to his vest on Vigilante.
As for the Holmes quote, that's what a lot of fans do. We speculate a lot without all of the 'facts' as so they were. It has nothing to do with being irrational or what not. Once again I think you're going a bit too far here. And this business about the universe not bending itself to fit our desires. I don't think you mean to, but sometimes you can dip into condescension.
I'm not rejecting what Guggenheim has said. I said I'm taking it with a grain of salt. I mean just so a week or so ago you had Guggenheim saying we would never see Felicity in a mask, or at least that's what he didn't want to see on Arrow, above a picture of Felicity in a mask (albeit on Legends of Tomorrow). So we're talking very fine distinctions here, since both shows belong in the Arrowverse. And I've pointed out how they've been artful with Laurel not coming back to the show, yet coming back albeit as Black Siren/Earth 2 Laurel.
I didn't say Guggenheim's statement wasn't true, but I'm leaving open the possibility that it isn't, or that it will be tweaked somehow. I don't "want to believe" anything, but I am not above wondering if Guggenheim is holding some cards close to his vest on Vigilante.
As for the Holmes quote, that's what a lot of fans do. We speculate a lot without all of the 'facts' as so they were. It has nothing to do with being irrational or what not. Once again I think you're going a bit too far here. And this business about the universe not bending itself to fit our desires. I don't think you mean to, but sometimes you can dip into condescension.
In a recent interview they said they'll explain why Arrow and Flash are not affected by this mess next season.
The Felicity comparison is spurious. You're parsing the words too literally, the surface rather than the substance. What he clearly meant was that, within the ongoing, prime-timeline narrative of Arrow, Felicity Smoak would never choose to become a costumed member of the team like the others have. He wasn't talking about costuming, he was talking about character choices, saying it would be out of character for Felicity to adopt the masked-vigilante approach of the others. What we saw in LoT: "Doomworld" does not contradict that; in fact, it reinforces it. Because we know that the real Felicity is averse to becoming a masked vigilante, seeing her adopt that role in Doomworld underlined just how drastically things had changed from the primary reality. And it showed how desperate things had become -- the one character who least wanted to become a masked vigilante had been forced to do so because every other hero was dead.
And Laurel hasn't come back either -- that remains literally true. Yes, they've brought back Katie Cassidy in various capacities, including as Black Siren, a character who was clearly established as not the same person as Laurel. The Arrowverse franchise usually treats doppelgangers as distinct people with separate identities -- cf. Harry Wells and H.R. Wells. (Caitlin Snow fears she's becoming the same as her doppelganger Killer Frost, but I expect she'll turn out differently in the end.) And though Sara had several chances to bring Laurel back on LoT, she's chosen not to do so. The producers have stayed quite true to their statement that they would not resurrect the Laurel that we knew, the one who was Black Canary and Sara's sister. They've found ways to bring the actress back without violating that. Again, you're so focused on the literal word choices that you're missing the point of the statement, which is about characters and storytelling arcs. The fact that Oliver, Sara, etc. keep getting reminders of Laurel without actually getting Laurel back underlines the emotional impact of her loss rather than reversing it.
So what matters about Guggenheim's statements is the substance, the underlying ideas rather than the superficial word choices. What he said was, "I’m not a fan of mystery characters who when you take off the mask the audience goes, ‘What [sic] a minute, I’ve never seen that person before in my life.’" That's the motivating idea behind the statement, that he dislikes it when a secret identity turns out to be someone unknown. While it's certainly true that the show might be playing some kind of game with Vigilante's identity, it probably won't the be specific kind of game Guggenheim is disdaining here, where the character turns out to be a stranger.
Well, this has been my week of the binge, and I just got done catching up with some Arrow episodes. I have to admit I'm kind of shaky on why Ollie would bring in Anatoly to kill Chase. What was the rationale there vs just doing it himself? After being broken, he didn't seem to want to do it anymore, why was having Anatoly do it any better? Sorry for being thick.
Some random thoughts:
- Felicity doesn't need a mask, she has those glasses which surely trumps any costume accoutrement. She's like the anti-Superman, she's more powerful and identifiable with them than without.
- TV series seem to have a rough time making a convincing ancient monastery type set.
- Really starting to feel the new team by the end especially Curtis and Rene. I thought Diggle really shined after losing Ollie.
- Am I a bad person for just fast forwarding most of the flashbacks other than the big one?
- At some point we need to see a drill or knife blade pop out of one of the T-Spheres. Maybe some episode with a tall man...
- Speaking of that, why doesn't he make a couple more spheres? Does the comic guy only use two for some reason (other than for anatomical jokes)?
- Does video encryption work like that? lol
- It seemed odd that once Chase was identified that Felicity couldn't track him by her own devices. I guess maybe it's that video encryption!
- Some have speculated Vigilante might be the real Chase. Why not just crash a press conference and reveal yourself?
Some random thoughts:
- Felicity doesn't need a mask, she has those glasses which surely trumps any costume accoutrement. She's like the anti-Superman, she's more powerful and identifiable with them than without.
- TV series seem to have a rough time making a convincing ancient monastery type set.
- Really starting to feel the new team by the end especially Curtis and Rene. I thought Diggle really shined after losing Ollie.
- Am I a bad person for just fast forwarding most of the flashbacks other than the big one?
- At some point we need to see a drill or knife blade pop out of one of the T-Spheres. Maybe some episode with a tall man...
- Speaking of that, why doesn't he make a couple more spheres? Does the comic guy only use two for some reason (other than for anatomical jokes)?
- Does video encryption work like that? lol
- It seemed odd that once Chase was identified that Felicity couldn't track him by her own devices. I guess maybe it's that video encryption!
- Some have speculated Vigilante might be the real Chase. Why not just crash a press conference and reveal yourself?
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