Are you a feminist?

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't feel like it needs a term

Me neither. I fully support equality, I just prefer not to use terms like this. I always assumed that women didn't want us guys using one of their words anyway.

 

[An Officer]

I have had to be. I would much rather it were not necessary.

 

[scotpens]

. . . there was a story here a few days back about an elderly man whom a court has ruled is able to face charges of raping his wife some 50 years ago, before it was a crime to do so. I don't really know what to think about that.

The possible precedent of doing so (that you can be charged with something that was not a crime when you did it) cannot be in the public interest, in my view. That is too dangerous a precedent to set in any legal system.

In the United States, it would be in direct violation of Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution: “No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.”

As to the topic: As a social libertarian, I disagree with the anti-porn and anti-prostitution wing of contemporary feminism. But generally speaking, I consider myself a feminist sympathizer. Does that make me a femsymp?

. . . As to "Feminism" referring to that humorless, militant fringe -- if we don't promote the true ideals and definition of feminism, but identifying ourselves properly as such, then there will only continue to be a misconception about what feminism is.

— How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

— That’s NOT FUNNY!

(Yeah, it’s an old joke, but someone had to repeat it.)

. . . However, I do not support that certain occupations should get paid more, because it’s typically a woman occupation. I’ll take an example, in Norway, there was a discussion were feminists argued that nurses should get paid the same as engineers. Their reasoning?, nurses are mostly female, and engineers are mostly men, and therefore men get paid more than women, and that’s inequality.

Uh, did the free market enter into their thinking at all?

 

[thestrangequark]

. . . As to "Feminism" referring to that humorless, militant fringe -- if we don't promote the true ideals and definition of feminism, but identifying ourselves properly as such, then there will only continue to be a misconception about what feminism is.

— How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

— That’s NOT FUNNY!

That's actually one of my favorite jokes too -- I've been resisting the urge to post it here all evening!

 

[scotpens]

No domestic violence should be acceptable.

I agree. I say, let’s keep violence on the street where it belongs!

 

[Thestral]

I'm not sensitive at all, it just wasn't recognizable as a joke.

As to "Feminism" referring to that humorless, militant fringe -- if we don't promote the true ideals and definition of feminism, but identifying ourselves properly as such, then there will only continue to be a misconception about what feminism is.

Maybe I've just been around the wrong women, but I've definitely gotten the impression that as a man I can never be an actual feminist or that it's not my place to claim it, though certainly an ally/supporter. So that's what I've come to think of myself as. And that's actually not a joke, more a sense of not really knowing what to do with that.

— How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

— That’s NOT FUNNY!

That's actually one of my favorite jokes too -- I've been resisting the urge to post it here all evening!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

No domestic violence should be acceptable.

I agree. I say, let’s keep violence on the street where it belongs!

OK, I'll admit I walked right into that one.

But I did want to distinguish between unacceptable violence, and, say, the regulated kind that occurs in certain sports, out in public.

 

[Avechbobo]

In Switzerland, women are by law equal to men. I am sure that, by now, this is the case in almost every 1st world country. Not even that, conscription for men continues to exist in many of them, Switzerland included. Men are discriminated against in divorces, in paying aliments, and in many european countries by affirmative action laws which obligate companies to employ a certain minimal female amount of its workforce.

While it does happen that women of the same qualification as men get paid less, that's what the law is for: To use it.

Of course if you look at africa, asia and the middle east, things look differently.

As for being a feminist, it depends. I am:

Pro:
- Choice
- Equal pay
- Equal treatment under law
- Pornography
- Prostitution

 

[Australis]

. . . As to "Feminism" referring to that humorless, militant fringe -- if we don't promote the true ideals and definition of feminism, but identifying ourselves properly as such, then there will only continue to be a misconception about what feminism is.

— How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

— That’s NOT FUNNY!

That's actually one of my favorite jokes too -- I've been resisting the urge to post it here all evening!

Reminds me of a cartoon
<scoots off to the interwebs, finds it, brings it back>

 

[Orac Zen]

I'm mildly tempted to quote the old saw that goes "Women who seek to be equal with men lack ambition", but it may not go over too well...oh, wait.



In the strict definition of the term (as tsq posted above), then I'm a feminist. In reality, I'm better defined as egalitarian - I don't believe anyone is "better" than / "superior" to (you get the idea) anyone else, in any way, shape or form. Period. We're all born the same way, we all bleed red, and we're all going to die. Everything else - gender, skin colour, sexuality, you name it - is completely irrelevant.

As mentioned, the term "feminism" seems, unfortunately, to have become associated with a sort of lunatic fringe (for lack of a better term) who appear to believe all men are scum and all women are beyond reproach. Both notions are quite ludicrous, of course. It's equally absurd than men would be (made to) feel they can't identify as feminists simply because of their gender. So much for the "equality" part.

I didn't vote in the poll, for the reasons outlined above.

 

[Cicero]

I do not consider myself a feminist. Nonetheless, I strongly object to anything less than equal treatment of the sexes.

The dictionary I most often use, the New Oxford American Dictionary, defines feminism as

"The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."
​

I know that the term is sometimes stated more broadly; Merriam-Webster, for example, defines it as

"The theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes."
​

But that source also defines it as

"Organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests."
​

Which, to my understanding, is closer to the historical meaning of the term, and is closer to the terms face-value meaning. (Of the three, I think the the New Oxford definition is best).

I think that phrasing the question in terms of women's rights, while historically understandable, misses the point of equality - that we shouldn't be thinking in terms of male or female rights at all, but in terms of the universality of all rights notwithstanding any characteristics outside a person's choice. That, certainly, I am in favor of; I do not, though, think it feminism.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Just out of curiosity the statement that men and women are equal has been coming up a lot here. What do you actually mean by it? One of the reasons radical feminism became kind of a silly caricature of themselves is the attempt to say men and women are equal as in "there are no inherent differences between the two" rather than the "men and women should be equal under the law" usage which I imagine is what most people mean by it.

 

[captcalhoun]

i am not a feminist. i refuse to be labelled. i am who i am.

i believe that everyone is equal because biologically we're all human beings. we all eat, we all sleep, we all take a dump, we all screw. and people really need to get over this labels crap and remember we're all human and we're all here together.

can't we all just get along?

 

[RJDiogenes]

And to my mind, those causes can be worked on as part of a larger mindset of not wanting anybody to be discriminated against. If it is wrong for women and minorities to be treated that way, then it is an offense against human dignity for anyone to be treated that way. Slavery and sex trafficking, for instance, are horrible for both sexes, and for all races that are victimized by it, and so is any kind of degrading treatment.

I tend to take what Martin Luther King, Jr. said very, very literally, about being able to truly regard each other as brothers and sisters, and judge each other solely by the content of our character. We've really lost that ideal of lifting each other up together, and it's unfortunate.

Of course. But, again, advocacy of one cause does not preclude advocacy of another. No doubt most Abolitionists were against slavery in any form-- but they were specifically seeking to abolish the slavery of Blacks in the United States. Words have meanings; anyone who opposes unequal treatment of women is a Feminist by definition.

Nevertheless, there are still groups which require advocacy. Women are still not paid as much as men, women and minorities are still not represented sufficiently in the sciences, homosexuals still can't get married in most States et cetera. Advocating for the oppressed does not intrinsically mean marginalizing the unoppressed.

I think it's not just about how people are treated, but also about ambition and identity.

I think most often, people are like sheep, and like to copy one another. Children are taught about stereotypes, as well as observing them for themselves, and learn how to compartmentalise and put themselves into boxes. So to a greater or lesser degree children will impose those stereotype upon themselves, and buy into a pre-packaged identity. As they mature, their decisions and expectations of themselves are shaped by biases "This is what women do.".

Quite often I think, this detracts from a person's ability to discover their true self. Sometimes people seem like they blur the line between ambition and stereotyping, and not really being able to explain one without reference to the other.

And that's not limited to gender; It's a phenomenon which applies broadly across many aspects of a person.

This is very true. Conformity-- people living down to their cliches and stereotypes-- is a huge problem. How many times do we hear female comedians joke about their shopping gene or male comedians joke about not asking for directions? These are the things that perpetuate chauvinism.

As to "Feminism" referring to that humorless, militant fringe -- if we don't promote the true ideals and definition of feminism, but identifying ourselves properly as such, then there will only continue to be a misconception about what feminism is.

Exactly. This is what annoys me about people who mock patriotism because the Right Wing has given it a bad name-- so give it a good name, dopes.

I fully support equality, I just prefer not to use terms like this. I always assumed that women didn't want us guys using one of their words anyway.

The idea that the word Feminism belongs only to women is chauvinistic, therefore anti-Feminist.

As to the topic: As a social libertarian, I disagree with the anti-porn and anti-prostitution wing of contemporary feminism. But generally speaking,

But that's not Feminism; Feminists advocate sexual freedom.

Maybe I've just been around the wrong women, but I've definitely gotten the impression that as a man I can never be an actual feminist or that it's not my place to claim it, though certainly an ally/supporter. So that's what I've come to think of myself as. And that's actually not a joke, more a sense of not really knowing what to do with that.

You've been around the wrong women.

Just out of curiosity the statement that men and women are equal has been coming up a lot here. What do you actually mean by it? One of the reasons radical feminism became kind of a silly caricature of themselves is the attempt to say men and women are equal as in "there are no inherent differences between the two" rather than the "men and women should be equal under the law" usage which I imagine is what most people mean by it.

It means there are no inherent differences between the two; radical "feminism" has become a caricature precisely because it promotes the belief that men and women are inherently different. It's not true. Women are just as capable in math and engineering as men are; men are just as capable of writing poetry and knitting socks. Women can be doctors. Men can be nurses. Women are not emotionally weak and flighty by nature; men are not shallow and stoic. There are not genes that require women to trade recipes and men to watch football. There are only two aspects to every person: Their Humanity and their individuality.

 

[cultcross]

Just out of curiosity the statement that men and women are equal has been coming up a lot here. What do you actually mean by it? One of the reasons radical feminism became kind of a silly caricature of themselves is the attempt to say men and women are equal as in "there are no inherent differences between the two" rather than the "men and women should be equal under the law" usage which I imagine is what most people mean by it.

Well I mean the latter, but it does extend beyond the law somewhat - behaviour and attitudes are included too. Sexism from individuals and companies which is within the bounds of law, but is still sexism, is just as wrong.

No-one would argue there are no differences between men and women, biologically, physiologically, and arguably psychologically. To me, feminism is not about crushing all difference, but not degrading people or depriving them of opportunity based on those differences.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Of course I'm a feminist. We have still a long road ahead of us before we achieve equal rights for women. Until then, being a feminist is a duty of every citizen and a badge of honour for people who fight that struggle.

It means nothing to me that fringe-groups abuse the term. Lunatics and fundamentalists abuse every term: liberal, socialist, conservative, Christian, Muslim, atheist, American, Italian, Trekkie. It doesn't mean we should be ashamed of them.

Nine times out of every ten that I hear the term, it refers to a lunatic fringe of cliched man-haters.

And nine times out of ten, what you call pizza is actually a sponge-like loaf of bread with sour tomato sauce and cheap cheese. Doesn't make real pizza ashamed of using its name.

 

[Kestra]

I like my sponge like bread with cheap cheese.

 

[iguana_tonante]

That's until you try the real deal, my dear.




Ok, I recognize that sounded pretty naughty, but I was talking strictly about baked goodies, I swear!

 

[KJbushway]

I am male, with a name like that how can I not be.
I don't know the true name of Feminist, I have heard many definitions. Growing up I had more friends that were girls than I had for guys, so I am all for equal rights and woman being independent. Many of those girls can honeslty tell you I was always the best friend that listened actually, gave good advised, and if they were having a bad day didn't make it worse but better. Times are changing, with the newer generations coming into the work force, woman look to be on top. there are woman out there that put a bad image out there for the strong woman, one girl is the one that named a drink after herself.

 

[cultcross]

That's until you try the real deal, my dear.




Ok, I recognize that sounded pretty naughty, but I was talking strictly about baked goodies, I swear!

I have to say, I have given 'real' pizza a number of tries in some really lovely places in Italy (and no, I don't follow the tourist crowd ) and I do prefer the dish Americans call 'pizza' to yours. Granted, yours almost certainly uses better ingredients, and is better for you, I've always found it lacking. I love pizza with excess sauce, and every one I had was more like they'd just dyed the middle of the dough red.
If you could combine the dough of the Italian version with the toppings of the American version, you'd have me sold.