Are there any good reasons to not want to be in the Federation?

[Shamrock Holmes]

Norah Satie still had anti-Romulan xenophobia

Sorry, how is it xenophobia to be opposed to a potential spy for a hostile foreign power joining the organisation tasked with the defence of your culture by fraud and deception?

Now, I agree that she took her investigation of Tarses too far, but her initial reasons for suspecting him were perfectly legitimate.

 

[Nyotarules]

Sorry, how is it xenophobia to be opposed to a potential spy for a hostile foreign power joining the organisation tasked with the defence of your culture by fraud and deception?

Now, I agree that she took her investigation of Tarses too far, but her initial reasons for suspecting him were perfectly legitimate.

The UFP or Starfleet having a law that banned people with Romulan heritage from joining their own organisation was a shame on them. Tarses was not responsible for who his ancestors were. That was a xenophobic rule.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, so I suppose I might misremembering but...

The UFP or Starfleet having a law that banned people with Romulan heritage from joining their own organisation was a shame on them.

IIRC, the law/rule isn't that you can't be a non-Federation citizen and even more so that you can't have non-citizen ancestry, but rather that you have to disclose it and follow the appropriate procedure to be vetted.

Tarses was not responsible for who his ancestors were.

No, but he was responsible for lying about his ancestry and illegally bypassing the vetting/sponsorship process that Nog went through later.

That was a xenophobic rule.

It's not xenophobic to insist on honesty in terms of potential security risks from your personnel.

BTW, Saavik is generally accepted as being half-Romulan, which if true would suggest that there is no blanket rule against (part-)Romulans in Starfleet as long as vetting proves that they don't have any hostile connections.

 

[Farscape One]

It's been a while since I've seen the episode, so I suppose I might misremembering but...



IIRC, the law/rule isn't that you can't be a non-Federation citizen and even more so that you can't have non-citizen ancestry, but rather that you have to disclose it and follow the appropriate procedure to be vetted.



No, but he was responsible for lying about his ancestry and illegally bypassing the vetting/sponsorship process that Nog went through later.



It's not xenophobic to insist on honesty in terms of potential security risks from your personnel.

BTW, Saavik is generally accepted as being half-Romulan, which if true would suggest that there is no blanket rule against (part-)Romulans in Starfleet as long as vetting proves that they don't have any hostile connections.

Exactly.

The first duty of a Starfleet officer is to truth, including personal truth. Picard made an entire speech about it a season later in "The First Duty".

 

[Turtletrekker]

Elnor was very specifically stated on screen to be the first full-blooded Romulan at the Academy.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Elnor was very specifically stated on screen to be the first full-blooded Romulan at the Academy.

Okay.

But that doesn't require that he was the first person with any Romulan ancestry to enrol at the Academy.

 

[Citiprime]

Since the backstory of Saavik being half-Romulan (in the script for Wrath of Khan) was never stated on-screen, I'm guessing that's still in headcanon territory.

 

[kkt]

In DS9 "Accession" Akorem directed that all Bajorans follow the castes that their family name indicated. Sisko pointed out that being restricted to one profession by caste would have barred Bajor from Federation membership. So if your planet has a caste system and you want to keep it, Federation membership is not for you.

The Cloud City of Stratos on Ardana in TOS "The Cloud Minders" had a caste of miners laboring below the surface of the planet, while the upper class persued art, music, and literature in the cloud city. They were already Federation members, but I like to think that eventually the Federation forced them to give up the caste aspect of their society.

 

[Farscape One]

Another possibility regarding Ardana is that particular rule about castes didn't exist at the time of "THE CLOUD MINDERS". (I like to think this, because otherwise the people who look into worlds for Federation membership really did not pay attention.)

Perhaps that entire incident prompted the Federation to add that to the rulebook.

 

[Nyotarules]

Its interesting reading the novelverse reasons for on screen Trek inconsistencies. I think one theory is the TOS era was the early days of the UFP so the TNG rules were not in place yet (before Enterprise came on our TVs), another is that the TOS Presidency of the UFP was corrupt and looked the other way to get the Zenite.

 

[Tenacity]

Tarses was not responsible for who his ancestors were.

To bad, he's compromised. He lied about his family's history, so he's susceptible to blackmail and manipulation.

Out he goes.

that particular rule about castes didn't exist at the time

Or the rules are constantly in flux, the rule about castes didn't exist a single decade before the episode which mentioned castes, and the rule would be gone and forgotten a few years later.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

This would, over time, likely completely change the Federation. The founding members would quickly be outnumbered by later hundreds of additions. When the United States expanded after it's creation, it was basically an expansion of the same culture/society. Hundreds of alien societies which developed in isolation are going to be fundamentally different from each other. Unless the new additions agree to be changed into a "Federation standard," which is a giant reason not to join.

At the 22nd century in 2161, the UFP was founded (Under the old name "The Coalition of Planets", before they re-branded into the UFP) with only 4 members.
The Founding 4 Members were Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, Tellar Prime.

By 24th Century in 2373 (212 years later), the UFP consisted of at least 150 member planets, spread over 8000 light years

Given how selective and all the cultural components & behaviors required, it's not surprising that they really slowed down on the run to the 32nd century.
Maybe that's why the UFP only had 350 Member Civilizations at their Peak right before "The Burn".
Being selective is more important than growing fast and they've deliberately slowed down on how fast they expand since time is endless.
Quality & Values is more important than just adding people into the UFP, and given that each new member has a say into who get's admitted, keeping the Quality bar the same or higher becomes more important with each new member.

 

[DonIago]

Is it possible the Ardanans didn't call attention to their caste system and the Federation at the time didn't conduct sufficiently due diligence?

 

[StarTrek1701]

Sorry, how is it xenophobia to be opposed to a potential spy for a hostile foreign power joining the organisation tasked with the defence of your culture by fraud and deception?

Now, I agree that she took her investigation of Tarses too far, but her initial reasons for suspecting him were perfectly legitimate.

I agree, my point however was moreso about the writing on what the Federation meant.
If Feds were consistent about this, Worf or Seven wouldn't ever be allowed to be Starfleet officers.
And Picard would be given a way earlier retirement.

The UFP or Starfleet having a law that banned people with Romulan heritage from joining their own organisation was a shame on them. Tarses was not responsible for who his ancestors were. That was a xenophobic rule.

Xenophobic, sure. But security is a concern.
Imagine a half Romulan with sympathy for Romulans, raised on Earth, but gets Soran's trilithium and shoots it at Sol.
Fed HQ gets vaporized in 8 minutes.

 

[kkt]

Its interesting reading the novelverse reasons for on screen Trek inconsistencies. I think one theory is the TOS era was the early days of the UFP so the TNG rules were not in place yet (before Enterprise came on our TVs), another is that the TOS Presidency of the UFP was corrupt and looked the other way to get the Xenite.

Yes, since that was the only source of Xenite, they might have looked the other way. Of course I'd rather they just hunt for another source or a substitute for Xenite or something, but it's plausible.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I agree, my point however was moreso about the writing on what the Federation meant.
If Feds were consistent about this, Worf or Seven wouldn't ever be allowed to be Starfleet officers.

Disagree on Worf, by the time he would have applied to Starfleet Academy he had had several years to "bond" with his human family, and while he feels some connection to Klingon culture there's no indication that he has any connection to any connection to the Klingon political establishment, nor are the Klingons enemies of the Federation at that point anyway (For a real world parallel, the USN Academy would likely reject a (naturised) citizen with a grandparent on the Russian State Duma, but might not reject another candidate with a random French citizen as a grandparent).

Seven is a bit more of a complicated case, but I would argue that by the end of the series she showed herself to be actively opposed to the Borg, so not a security risk. YMMV.

And Picard would be given a way earlier retirement.

Similar to above, not really based on the evidence known at the time. Though per PIC they probably should have retired him after the event.

Xenophobic, sure. But security is a concern.

YMMV, but the fact that there is a legitimate concern, that appears to be examined on a case-by-case basis negates the charge of xenophobia.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

There's also a possible concern that some members of certain groups may present a risk not because of anything they willingly do, but because they are particularly vulnerable to being turned against their will (former Borg with exploitable tech still unremoved that can be hacked, etc.)

Given all the times we've seen average characters be mind controlled by various tech/hypnosis, etc. perhaps they regard everyone, obvious weakness or not, as potential threats, and stay on their guard for everyone rather than singling certain individuals out.

 

[Nyotarules]

There's also a possible concern that some members of certain groups may present a risk not because of anything they willingly do, but because they are particularly vulnerable to being turned against their will (former Borg with exploitable tech still unremoved that can be hacked, etc.)

Given all the times we've seen average characters be mind controlled by various tech/hypnosis, etc. perhaps they regard everyone, obvious weakness or not, as potential threats, and stay on their guard for everyone rather than singling certain individuals out.

Agree, good thing there was only one Data in the fleet. You could hack into him too easily.

 

[at Quark's]

Another possibility regarding Ardana is that particular rule about castes didn't exist at the time of "THE CLOUD MINDERS". (I like to think this, because otherwise the people who look into worlds for Federation membership really did not pay attention.)

Perhaps that entire incident prompted the Federation to add that to the rulebook.

Assuming this for the moment, the more interesting question (in my view at least) is what happened to Ardana after that particular rule was adopted. Were they forced to adapt their society? Were they thrown out? Or did the Federation simply say: the rule only holds for new applicants from this time forward, not for those that already were in?

 

[Nyotarules]

Assuming this for the moment, the more interesting question (in my view at least) is what happened to Ardana after that particular rule was adopted. Were they forced to adapt their society? Were they thrown out? Or did the Federation simply say: the rule only holds for new applicants from this time forward, not for those that already were in?

After Kirk and his crew left, they were so effective the whole planet changed their culture overnight. Droxine took over as planet leader and reformed the whole system.
(my fanon)