And their puppet shows are da bomb.
Are there any good reasons to not want to be in the Federation?
- Thread starter suarezguy
- Start date
I don't recall there being anything canonical about his getting off on Solanum lycopersicum.
In the classical sense: Eddington prayed to tomatoes for good luck as a form of idolatry.
I don't remember any canonical mention of that, either.
It’s in Blaze of Glory.
Not really “worshipping” (I assume that was a little joke), but he did go on about his tomato plants.
Lousy poker players, though.
Bajor would have been ineligible if they still had their caste system. I wonder how the Federation would respond to an insectoid race that has actual biological castes? (Worker, soldier, nurse, drone, queen, etc.)
Self determination to...what? Slavery? Exploitation of the weak? Murder? Human sacrifice? Because those are the things that tend to be illegal in the Federation.
Any recreational substance the Federation bans, perhaps.
Clearly eugenics and biological augmentation is illegal. Bashir's parents broke the law in genetically modifying Julian. Illyrians were prevented from joining the Federation due to exercising the choice of genetic automation.
Those are two examples of self determination that do not fall under the protest you make. Perhaps others can think of more.
I can imagine they'd handle this on a case by case basis. They seem to make a lot of allowance for things that are biological factors. Like, the Vulcans are allowed their Pon-Farr.
As for cultural Caste systems...yeah...those fall under "exploitation of the weak" and, quite possibly, in several cases "slavery"
Raffi Musiker?
From that we could speculate that the "recreational substances" the Federation bans are probably the more nasty, deadly ones (which exist). So this, to me at leat, not that great of an argument. We don't have any evidence that the Federation has banned weed (not that I think substances like weed are a good argument, but that's my personal opinion)
(Romulan Ale has political reasons, but even so, I don't think Romulan Ale is a good argument against the Federation)
This is an argument I can accept. But even here...we don't know how complete this is. Yes we have the statement about Bashir, but on the other hand we don't really see or hear of people with deliberating birth defects. So perhaps a degree of corrective genetic therapy (+plus very advanced medical technology) is permitted in such cases, it just didn't extend to what Bashir had.
Of course regardless of Bashir's case, if a species is very interested in augmenting themselves for whatever reason, and perhaps even benefit from it without breeding a bunch of Kahhhhhhhhhhns then that would be an argument I can accept.
Buttom line the bulk of the things the Federation bans, as far as we can tell, seems to be the sort of nasty crap that shouldn't exist anyway.
in the episode Bashir states that serious birth defects are allowed to be treated with genetic therapy. the only question is what is considered serious. And I'd assume lots of things can be treated directly without genetic intervention.
Romulan ale is illegal, yet does not seem that nasty.
Clearly the Federation isn't exclusively concerned about health and safety in deciding what to ban.
I think the ban on Romulan ale in the Federation is more akin to the real world ban on Cuban cigars in the USA. Purely politics.
Agreed. It explains why the ban was lifted during the Dominion War when the Romulans joined the fight. (Per "INTER ARMA ENIM SILENT LEGES".)
I literally adressed this in my post. Please take time to read someone's message before you answer, even if it disarms your argument.
Plus again...missing out on all the things that the Federation can do for you....because you might not be able to get high in a specific way (boo-hoo!) is absolutely ridiculous.
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By the 31st century several civilizations withdrew membership. What we saw from Earth looked like they were doing fine and did not miss out on anything by no longer being members.
The same can be said about civilizations in the 23rd and 24th centuries. Replicators are not unique to the Federation, so living in a post scarcity society is, likewise, not limited to the Federation. Some non Federation members have medical advances beyond the Federation.
I know it's apocryphal and will get me flamed just mentioning it, but Axanar depicts a potential secession of a valued member world that disagrees with the Federation is taking in connection to the Klingons.
A real in-universe example is the Maquis. Eventually they were depicted as no longer wanting to be a part of the Federation. True, they may have changed their mind if the Federation took their side, but that's the point, isn't it? They were dissatisfied about something and felt the Federation was no longer worth being a part of.
So? That does not change the fact that some might resist joining the Federation for purely political reasons.
My point was not so much about getting high as it was to highlight some things are banned that maybe an outside civilization might want to partake in. Maybe it's something that is not a narcotic. I don't have an infinite database on items that can be banned and the reasons why.
Self determination is a big factor, too. Look at how upset (for lack of a better word) people got over the suggestion Canada or Greenland should become part of the USA. They did not like the suggestion and feel they are just fine (or better) as they are.
Want to believe the Federation is a utopia with no negative aspects? Then of course it's hard to imagine why people would not want to join. Write some stories about the flaws of the Federation and we might see reasons people would choose to not join.
^How about not wanting to join because of all those Starfleet Badmirals?
Yeah, clearly someone is paying too much attention to the propaganda about the Federation not the reality of it. Star Trek always tends to say in the dialogue how perfect the Federation and it's people are and then in the very next scene will prove that assertation wrong.
The Federation came together due to the Romulan threat. If the Romulan threat had not happened I doubt very much beyond trade agreements Earth, Vulcan, Tellar , Andor etc would have created the UFP.
If you go by Picard season 1, there were a significant number of Federation members who killed the Romulan evacuation efforts using the threat of secession. That would imply, even in the 24th century, there's still tensions about the use of some resources even in a society that has replicators, and how those resources are used for "others" which some member species may not approve of.
And you could see that being a consideration for any prospective member. Might the Federation demand either troops, materials, etc., for some cause we fundamentally disagree with once we're part of it?
I've always thought the Roddenberry inspired series Andromeda had an interesting idea as its backstory. Basically, the Federation counterpart in the story (the Systems Commonwealth) makes peace with a species named the Magog who consume and reproduce like the Xenomorphs in the Alien franchise. The Federation-like decision to attempt peace and understanding with such a race divides the members of the Systems Commonwealth, who are either repulsed by the idea, or see it as weakness and a reason to withdraw and revolt.
One real-world equivalent has been thought debates about NATO. Membership in NATO is predicated on mutual defense ("an attack against one is an attack on all"). But if it came down to it, and the Russians invaded Estonia, would we be ready to start World War III to defend a place most people can't point out on a map?
And, if you're in the Federation, you're committing yourself to help defend a bunch of colonists on the frontier from whatever threats they encounter.
And you could see that being a consideration for any prospective member. Might the Federation demand either troops, materials, etc., for some cause we fundamentally disagree with once we're part of it?
I've always thought the Roddenberry inspired series Andromeda had an interesting idea as its backstory. Basically, the Federation counterpart in the story (the Systems Commonwealth) makes peace with a species named the Magog who consume and reproduce like the Xenomorphs in the Alien franchise. The Federation-like decision to attempt peace and understanding with such a race divides the members of the Systems Commonwealth, who are either repulsed by the idea, or see it as weakness and a reason to withdraw and revolt.
One real-world equivalent has been thought debates about NATO. Membership in NATO is predicated on mutual defense ("an attack against one is an attack on all"). But if it came down to it, and the Russians invaded Estonia, would we be ready to start World War III to defend a place most people can't point out on a map?
And, if you're in the Federation, you're committing yourself to help defend a bunch of colonists on the frontier from whatever threats they encounter.
The Federation is not a utopia, and it never was. Is it better than most other organizations we've seen? Certainly. But we're also seeing the Federation through the eyes of either Starfleet officers or Federation citizens for a majority of the franchise.
ENT, we obviously don't because it didn't exist yet. I don't count PICARD because except for Elnor, who had even less to do than Mayweather on ENT, everyone was either a Federation citizen or ex-Starfleet. PRODIGY, we do get a view, and it does paint Starfleet and the Federation in a very hopeful view. (And considering it IS a series geared for kids, I am in complete agreement with it being like this.) DS9 is the only one that has non-Federation members and the show DOES take a more balanced look at the Federation.
For another reason why a planet may not want to become a member, I submit the root beer scene in DS9's "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR". Maybe a planet just doesn't want to drink the root beer.
ENT, we obviously don't because it didn't exist yet. I don't count PICARD because except for Elnor, who had even less to do than Mayweather on ENT, everyone was either a Federation citizen or ex-Starfleet. PRODIGY, we do get a view, and it does paint Starfleet and the Federation in a very hopeful view. (And considering it IS a series geared for kids, I am in complete agreement with it being like this.) DS9 is the only one that has non-Federation members and the show DOES take a more balanced look at the Federation.
For another reason why a planet may not want to become a member, I submit the root beer scene in DS9's "THE WAY OF THE WARRIOR". Maybe a planet just doesn't want to drink the root beer.
