Genuine question, why is this entire post in bold?
Are there 2 Klingon Homeworlds post-Undiscovered Country?
- Thread starter Citiprime
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I doubt you could reconcile Ishmael's idiosyncratic, crossover-laden version of the Trek universe with the one established in later canon. Sure, you could amuse yourself with the pretense that the Hur'q backstory was pretty close to the Karsid backstory from the novel, but there are bound to be details that conflict.
Of course they didn't. Laypeople always want to assume that any remote similarity they see between two stories is "proof" that one copied the other, but that's naive. The fact is that writers tell similar stories by accident all the time, because there are only so many meaningful ways to put concepts together, especially when working within the same universe. As a rule, we try to avoid copying stories that others have already told, because nobody wants to be accused of being imitative, and because the people who buy and pay for works of fiction generally want them to be original and fresh. One of the main reasons that stories get rejected is "Sorry, we're already doing one like that." It's annoyingly difficult to avoid copying someone else's idea by accident. So if a writer does find out that someone else has already done something, we'll usually try to do something different.
That means that you have it backward to assume that a similarity is proof of copying. Usually, the fact that two ideas are similar to each other is proof that the later writers did not know of the earlier idea. If they had, they would've changed their story to be more distinct from it.
No, they wouldn't. That only applies to people who write for the TV shows or movies. Tie-in writing like novels and comics is work-for-hire. Everything we write in the Star Trek universe is the property of Star Trek's owners. If they want to, they're perfectly free to use any concepts from our tie-in fiction, because we write it on their behalf as their hired contractors. It's just that they usually don't, because they're too busy making their own shows and movies to pay much attention to what the tie-in books are doing. They have plenty of ideas of their own to keep them busy, and approving the tie-in books is generally left to the folks in the licensing department to handle.
A cover-up requires multiple people working together to conceal something, which is the definition of a conspiracy. But the point is not about the definition of a conspiracy. It's that conspiracy theories are driven by an irrational need to postulate an imaginary, overcomplicated, bad explanation for something when there's already a perfectly simple and innocuous explanation. The simple, logical explanation is that the initial projections of the need to evacuate the homeworld were wrong. Either they discovered things weren't that bad after all, or they found a scientific solution that let them save the homeworld's ecosystem. First impressions are often wrong. There's nothing unlikely or unusual about that. So there's no reason to assume the homeworld had to be evacuated, and thus no reason to invent an overcomplicated cover-up theory.
That's also the same kind of mentality as conspiracy theories -- manufacturing hypotheticals with no basis in evidence and going off in complicated spirals with no connection to reality.
how often have we seen klingons eat plant-based foods? they surely would consider it dead, right?
From my memory no, but after reading all these comments, I'd have to say yes.
What does that matter? You need to grow far more crops as fodder for meat animals than you do if you have a vegetarian diet.
dryson didn't talk about fodder, right?
emphasis mine
i do believe that the concept of klingons as a warrior race is a bit ridiculuos. you just need to think about europe in the middleages when most of the people were living of a mostly vegetarian diet whether they wanted it or not wheras the let's call it warrior caste were a bunch of overfed specialists in murder and mayhem.
i always wanted to see a part of the klingon lower castes (their vegetarians so to say) - i'd buy books about them
Dryson's question was about whether the Klingons could use the time crystals to feed their people, in response to my point about "Day of the Dove" establishing that their worlds were impoverished. So the question is not about the Klingons' dietary preferences, but whether they could use accelerated plant growth as a solution to food shortages. The issues there are the same whether they eat the plants themselves or grow them for their meat animals; and indeed the need to grow plants is even greater for a meat-eating people, because you need to feed the livestock that feeds the people instead of just feeding the people, which is more efficient. An omnivorous population needs four times as much cropland as a vegan population, and a strictly carnivorous population would need even more cropland.
i know all that - we never see those lower caste klingons (doing the farming and stuff) do we?
my point was and is that we only see their warrior caste and nothing else (besides a doctor or a lawyer here and there) - we know how a few percent of all klingons live. we know how they treat lower rank warrior klingons so how do they treat their farmers, the guys building their ships the 90%+ of them we never see.
it's ridiculuos to believe they are all like the upper echelons of that feudalistic pyramid (that is what their society is) we get to see in trek.
i never said they don't eat veggies i said we never see it. a society like theirs needs to implode in an frech revolution like event. their houses are nothing but fiefdoms.
we don't even hear about an uprising being put down. basicly klingons don't make much sense.
Which is a completely different topic from the one dryson and I were discussing, so I don't know why you're changing the subject.
That's also the same kind of mentality as conspiracy theories -- manufacturing hypotheticals with no basis in evidence and going off in complicated spirals with no connection to reality.
It's not really conspiracy theory, but more so advanced reconning and scout by the Dominion after slipping through the wormhole to determine what weaknesses could be exploited.
Without the Klingon home world being given a proper name, the rumor mill of its exact location, rather the exact location of the Klingon governing body could be kept secret until the Klingon's had time to rebuild their home world.
For example, if the Klingon home world had been given a name, information agents would be able to more rapidly determine the location of the Klingon home world and the Klingon governing body that assassins could then be sent to to take out the governing body, thus further weakening the Klingon empire, overall.
Dryson's question was about whether the Klingons could use the time crystals to feed their people, in response to my point about "Day of the Dove" establishing that their worlds were impoverished. So the question is not about the Klingons' dietary preferences, but whether they could use accelerated plant growth as a solution to food shortages. The issues there are the same whether they eat the plants themselves or grow them for their meat animals; and indeed the need to grow plants is even greater for a meat-eating people, because you need to feed the livestock that feeds the people instead of just feeding the people, which is more efficient. An omnivorous population needs four times as much cropland as a vegan population, and a strictly carnivorous population would need even more cropland.
Very true. I have never gotten into the actual Klingon diet, but from what I have seen on TNG, the Klingon diet seems to be a combination of food that is alive and lives in water as well as plants used for garnishment and fiber content. Is there a map of post Praxis Klingon Empire that shows the planets of the Klingon Empire?
It's not really conspiracy theory, but more so advanced reconning and scout by the Dominion after slipping through the wormhole to determine what weaknesses could be exploited.
Without the Klingon home world being given a proper name, the rumor mill of its exact location, rather the exact location of the Klingon governing body could be kept secret until the Klingon's had time to rebuild their home world.
For example, if the Klingon home world had been given a name, information agents would be able to more rapidly determine the location of the Klingon home world and the Klingon governing body that assassins could then be sent to to take out the governing body, thus further weakening the Klingon empire, overall.
Dryson's question was about whether the Klingons could use the time crystals to feed their people, in response to my point about "Day of the Dove" establishing that their worlds were impoverished. So the question is not about the Klingons' dietary preferences, but whether they could use accelerated plant growth as a solution to food shortages. The issues there are the same whether they eat the plants themselves or grow them for their meat animals; and indeed the need to grow plants is even greater for a meat-eating people, because you need to feed the livestock that feeds the people instead of just feeding the people, which is more efficient. An omnivorous population needs four times as much cropland as a vegan population, and a strictly carnivorous population would need even more cropland.
Very true. I have never gotten into the actual Klingon diet, but from what I have seen on TNG, the Klingon diet seems to be a combination of food that is alive and lives in water as well as plants used for garnishment and fiber content. Is there a map of post Praxis Klingon Empire that shows the planets of the Klingon Empire?
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There are some who think that worlds may indeed be capable of exploding on their own
https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/did-the-moon-form-in-natural-nuclear-explosion/
It could be that Praxis was very like Ilum:
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ilum
The Klingons tried to turn the core into a power generator and it came apart on them.
It was their key power source.
With Praxis gone…they had to get their science books elsewhere
https://www.springer.com/series/4097
https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/did-the-moon-form-in-natural-nuclear-explosion/
It could be that Praxis was very like Ilum:
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ilum
The Klingons tried to turn the core into a power generator and it came apart on them.
It was their key power source.
With Praxis gone…they had to get their science books elsewhere
https://www.springer.com/series/4097
Another question is, would the Klingon's diet dramatically have changed due to losing Qo'noS, 50 years after the explosion of Praxis? This question fits in with, Where there 2 Klingon home worlds post TUC and is very important. Important for the simple reason that if the Klingon's were not able to rapidly produce agricultural needs on a planet similar to Qo'nos, then the diet of the Klingon would have changed, which could have caused new viruses and diseases to emerge in the Klingon empire.
As I've said repeatedly, DS9 and VGR established that the Klingon Homeworld seen in TNG was Qo'noS. They did not lose it. The early predictions of the need to evacuate must have been wrong, or new techniques for restoring its environment were developed.
Look, @Christopher , I found an article you might be interested in:
https://twitter.com/physorg_com/status/1605212953757745153?s=46&t=Rx82gk99DCM1f1nmnVlt3A
Also, why are there so many different spellings of the Klingon home world’s name? Some even say Kronos. Kronos One is also the name of Chancellor Gorkon’s K’Tinga class battle cruiser. Or should his ship also be called Qo’noS One?
https://twitter.com/physorg_com/status/1605212953757745153?s=46&t=Rx82gk99DCM1f1nmnVlt3A
Also, why are there so many different spellings of the Klingon home world’s name? Some even say Kronos. Kronos One is also the name of Chancellor Gorkon’s K’Tinga class battle cruiser. Or should his ship also be called Qo’noS One?
The whole nonsense about revealing that Kronos is really "Qo'nos" (or however you write it) was just so unnecessary. Why can't the Starfleet characters just call the Klingon homeworld by it's Earth name (Kronos)? After all they also do so with Vulcan and Betazed. There was never any need for "Qo'nos"
Look, @Christopher , I found an article you might be interested in:
https://twitter.com/physorg_com/status/1605212953757745153?s=46&t=Rx82gk99DCM1f1nmnVlt3A
Also, why are there so many different spellings of the Klingon home world’s name? Some even say Kronos. Kronos One is also the name of Chancellor Gorkon’s K’Tinga class battle cruiser. Or should his ship also be called Qo’noS One?
"Kronos" and "Qo'noS" are just different ways of transliterating the Klingon alphabet, that's all. Same way "Volodymyr Zelenskyy" and "Vladimir Zelensky" are two different ways of transliterating the name of the President of Ukraine (Володимир Зеленський), or the way the late dictator of Libya's name معمر محمد ابو منيار القذافي was transliterated into English multiple ways (Muammar Gaddafi, Qaddhafi, Qaddafi, etc.)
Why did we get a fancy alternate transliteration of Qo'noS's name when we didn't with other alien languages? Because Marc Okrand was hired to develop the Klingon language but no one did nearly so much work to make up the Vulcan, Romulan, Andorian, etc. languages.
Is that some explanation from expanded universe?
Because I'm pretty sure when they first thought up the name it was just meant to be named after Kronos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronus the Titan.
Just like Vulcan is named after Vulcan the god.
Both names "Kronos" and "Qo'noS" come from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, as discussed earlier. It was not a retcon from some later Trek production.
Undoubtedly, the real-world, behind-the-scenes reason for choosing "Kronos" was so it would sound like a name from Earth mythology. And then as Okrand came up with the Klingon-language dialog for the movie, he back-formed "Qo'noS" as the closest possible sound using the Klingon orthography that he had already developed.
Kor
Undoubtedly, the real-world, behind-the-scenes reason for choosing "Kronos" was so it would sound like a name from Earth mythology. And then as Okrand came up with the Klingon-language dialog for the movie, he back-formed "Qo'noS" as the closest possible sound using the Klingon orthography that he had already developed.
Kor
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