Anyone else disturbed by La Forges sexual harrasment of Leah Brahms?

[Tosk]

She was explaining that she felt violated, which is a serious accusation. Regardless of his intent, or even if she was justified, surely the very least he could/should have done is listen to what she had to say, rather than shouting back at her?

He did listen. He listened to her accuse him of things that were not the way she made them sound. Then he tried to explain that the situation was not as she imagined. When she mentioned violation, he only responded that she was misunderstanding the situation. Then she accused him of more, and he still tried to explain. It wasn't until the fourth time she accused him of things he didn't do that he reacted loudly.

At what point is he allowed to argue back? Is he allowed to at all, or should he have listened silently until she was exhausted and then just turned and left? I've never seen anyone angry become less so because the other person stopped talking for an extended period.

For further reference, courtesy of chakoteya.net ...

HOLO LEAH: I'm with you every day, Geordi. Every time you look at this engine, you're looking at me. Every time you touch it, it's me.
(Geordi runs in, too late)
LAFORGE: Computer, freeze programme.
LEAH: Now I understand.
LAFORGE: No, you don't. It's not the way this may look.
LEAH: I called up a replay of the programme file. I was all ready to compliment you again, Commander, for constructing a programme which contained the prototype engine so that you would always have a baseline reference for your modifications. And now I find that it's all about a fantasy plaything.
LAFORGE: It's not like that, I swear.
LEAH: I'm outraged by this. I have been invaded. Violated. How dare you use me like this? How far did it go, anyway? Was it good for you?
LAFORGE: Nothing like that happened. It was a professional collaboration.
LEAH: Oh, I can tell. Every time you're touching the engine you're touching me. Real professional.
LAFORGE: Look, if you watched the whole programme, you saw what it was. We were working together to solve a problem in a crisis situation.
LEAH: How do I know how far it went? How many other programs did you create? Perhaps dozens of them, one for every day of the week, one for every mood.
LAFORGE: All right, look. Ever since you came on board, you've been badgering me and I've taken it. I've shown you courtesy, and respect, and a hell of a lot of patience. Oh, no, no, no, wait a minute. I've tried to understand you. I've tried to get along with you. And in return, you've accused, tried and convicted me without bothering to hear my side of it. So, I'm guilty, okay? But not of what you think. Of something much worse. I'm guilty of reaching out to you, of hoping we could connect. I'm guilty of a terrible crime, Doctor. I offered you friendship.

 

[DonIago]

Well, I think the last part is a bit out of line, but I can see how Geordi would have been upset enough to have taken the cheap shot in the heat of the moment.

In a way, it might have been interesting to see how this would have played out if Brahms had filed a formal complaint before giving Geordi the opportunity to further explain himself.

 

[Tosk]

They would have gone through all the logs and viewed the entire holodeck program and realized that Geordi did nothing wrong. The most that would have happened would be that they might tweak the holodeck subroutines so that it did not use sexualized innuendo when recreating real people.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

LOL
When I was in the Army the men in one of my units I was stationed in had peepholes through a painted window into our (women's)shower/bathroom.
It was asinine, boorish, piggish and disgusting and foul but not Harrassment.

How can that not be more than just disgusting? Surely that's at the level of inappropriate where there'd be rules against that sort of thing?

LAFORGE: All right, look. Ever since you came on board, you've been badgering me and I've taken it. I've shown you courtesy, and respect, and a hell of a lot of patience. Oh, no, no, no, wait a minute. I've tried to understand you. I've tried to get along with you. And in return, you've accused, tried and convicted me without bothering to hear my side of it. So, I'm guilty, okay? But not of what you think. Of something much worse. I'm guilty of reaching out to you, of hoping we could connect. I'm guilty of a terrible crime, Doctor. I offered you friendship.

"I've shown you courtesy and respect" he says after hiding the truth and lying to her.
"I offered you friendship" he says forgetting that the "professional" meal in his quarters, the one he arranged after using the personal knowledge he gained from the holodeck program he didn't tell her about, was a candlelit dinner with mood lighting and romantic music...

 

[Markonian]

Btw, in the German episode Doctor Brahms says "Sie haben mich missbraucht! Vergewaltigt!" - "You violated me! Raped me!"

Of course, watching it as children in 90s Germany it seemed like a hilarious overreaction by an "ordinary hysterical woman". I take it in a different way in today's age.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Btw, in the German episode Doctor Brahms says "Sie haben mich missbraucht! Vergewaltigt!" - "You violated me! Raped me!"

Of course, watching it as children in 90s Germany it seemed like a hilarious overreaction by an "ordinary hysterical woman". I take it in a different way in today's age.

It's easy to forget that translating is more than just word for word, it's all about context, and how the translator interprets meanings, which often may be different from what the original writers intended...

 

[Tosk]

"I've shown you courtesy and respect" he says after hiding the truth and lying to her.
"I offered you friendship" he says forgetting that the "professional" meal in his quarters, the one he arranged after using the personal knowledge he gained from the holodeck program he didn't tell her about, was a candlelit dinner with mood lighting and romantic music...

Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

Geordi made some bad calls along the way, I don't see anyone denying that. He was stupid and dishonest and sometimes both at the same time.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

I'd say respect and lying to gain an advantage definitely are mutually exclusive, even if you're naive enough to not realise the full impact of what you're doing.

And yes, friendship and romance often do go hand in hand, but it's clear that Geordi definitely had romantic intentions. Something he again chooses not to own up to when shouting her down.

Geordi made some bad calls along the way, I don't see anyone denying that. He was stupid and dishonest and sometimes both at the same time.

The point isn't just about Geordi's actions, it's that the episode allows him to get away with them, and so he doesn't realise where he goes wrong, and can't learn from his mistakes.

Another point is that it takes Leah to say she's married for him to realise he doesn't have a chance with her. A conscious choice by the writers, and it would have been interesting to see how things would have been different if she just said she wasn't interested in him that way. Judging by his previous behaviour, there's every possibility that he's the type of guy who wouldn't have taken no for answer, and just been even more persistent?

 

[DonIago]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the episode where Geordi hits on someone, they respond that they're not interested, and he continues hitting on them anyway.

 

[{ Emilia }]

The point is that it's a silly choice by the writers to use "I'm married" to end all his hopes, when "I'm not interested" should have been enough.
It ties into the common assumption that men are entitled to a woman's romantic attention unless she already "belongs to another man". Female agency isn't that respected, sadly.

A friend of mine was constantly harassed by a dude one night at a club. He wouldn't stop no matter how often she told him she's not interested. In the end it turned out her boyfriend knows the dude and when he contacted him, the guy's reaction was: "Oh, I'm so sorry. I wouldn't have done this if I'd known she's with you."

Now this doesn't mean Geordi would go that far, but seeing "I'm married" as the ultimate reason for why Geordi can't "have her" instead of "I'm not interested" is such a typical choice.

 

[Voth commando1]

If she was a hologram why get so upset-Geordie was simply acting out a fantasy he could not get in RL.

 

[USS Triumphant]

The point isn't just about Geordi's actions, it's that the episode allows him to get away with them, and so he doesn't realise where he goes wrong, and can't learn from his mistakes

Perhaps, but, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. You're expecting Trek to teach a lesson - not unreasonable, considering that at times it went out of its way to do exactly that, sometimes to a preachy degree.

But maybe this isn't one of those times. We have to remember that one of Geordi's defining traits is that he is *bad with women*. Perhaps him not learning from his mistakes is entirely in keeping with that?

 

[MadeIndescribable]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the episode where Geordi hits on someone, they respond that they're not interested, and he continues hitting on them anyway.

I'm just saying it's a possibility. Throughout the episode it's been fairly obvious she doesn't think much of him romantically or otherwise, but he's still persisted with an "if only I can impress her enough..." attitude.

 

[stardream]

The point is that it's a silly choice by the writers to use "I'm married" to end all his hopes, when "I'm not interested" should have been enough.
It ties into the common assumption that men are entitled to a woman's romantic attention unless she already "belongs to another man". Female agency isn't that respected, sadly.

A friend of mine was constantly harassed by a dude one night at a club. He wouldn't stop no matter how often she told him she's not interested. In the end it turned out her boyfriend knows the dude and when he contacted him, the guy's reaction was: "Oh, I'm so sorry. I wouldn't have done this if I'd known she's with you."

Now this doesn't mean Geordi would go that far, but seeing "I'm married" as the ultimate reason for why Geordi can't "have her" instead of "I'm not interested" is such a typical choice.

That always confused me. What is is about 'leave me alone' do they not understand?

 

[{ Emilia }]

That always confused me. What is is about 'leave me alone' do they not understand?

The "me" part. Because it implies that women are human beings with agency. It's shocking, isn't it?

Remember that famous quote about feminism? Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Perhaps, but, maybe you're looking at this the wrong way. You're expecting Trek to teach a lesson - not unreasonable, considering that at times it went out of its way to do exactly that, sometimes to a preachy degree.

But maybe this isn't one of those times. We have to remember that one of Geordi's defining traits is that he is *bad with women*. Perhaps him not learning from his mistakes is entirely in keeping with that?

From a narrative point, yes, that does makes sense that he's still very naive. But when Trek teaches lessons it is Trek teaching us, the audience, lessons, using its heroes as a tool to do so. It would still need to teach us that Geordi's attitudes aren't ok, which, by having Leah apologise, it doesn't.

 

[USS Triumphant]

From a narrative point, yes, that does makes sense that he's still very naive. But when Trek teaches lessons it is Trek teaching us, the audience, lessons, using its heroes as a tool to do so. It would still need to teach us that Geordi's attitudes aren't ok, which, by having Leah apologise, it doesn't.

Realistically, though, unfortunately, women behave that way sometimes, too. Some women (and some guys, too, really) prefer to defuse conflict even if it means taking blame on themselves for things that aren't their fault. Perhaps they should have had her respond differently. But her response could have been what the writer considered the way her character would handle it. A better option in my mind, but that would have required serial storytelling for the series, would have been to have Geordi talking to Troi about his trouble with women a few episodes later. He could say something like that he thought he and Leah had ended as friends but that she didn't respond to messages he sent after she left, and Troi could explain to him why he's a putz, and either he'd get it or not, as per what was needed for the story from there, but the audience would hear Troi. And anything that gave her a more substantive role on the show is good, too.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

Realistically, though, unfortunately, women behave that way sometimes, too. Some women (and some guys, too, really) prefer to defuse conflict even if it means taking blame on themselves for things that aren't their fault. Perhaps they should have had her respond differently.

Yes, that does happen in the (21st Century) real world, but I'm definitely of the opinion that the writers should have had her behave differently. Portraying things as they are, rather than as they should be will only get you so far, and in pop culture like Star Trek, has to take a lot of the responsibility for maintaing the negative status quo.

A better option in my mind, but that would have required serial storytelling for the series, would have been to have Geordi talking to Troi about his trouble with women a few episodes later. He could say something like that he thought he and Leah had ended as friends but that she didn't respond to messages he sent after she left, and Troi could explain to him why he's a putz, and either he'd get it or not, as per what was needed for the story from there, but the audience would hear Troi. And anything that gave her a more substantive role on the show is good, too.

I can certainly see the narrative merits of this storyline, but to me it's still covering up rather than adressing the problem to begin with.

 

[Nakita Akita]

How can that not be more than just disgusting? Surely that's at the level of inappropriate where there'd be rules against that sort of thing?

"I've shown you courtesy and respect" he says after hiding the truth and lying to her.
"I offered you friendship" he says forgetting that the "professional" meal in his quarters, the one he arranged after using the personal knowledge he gained from the holodeck program he didn't tell her about, was a candlelit dinner with mood lighting and romantic music...

Well, I don't know about "rules"
But I was s major bitch and I went Psycho and got them to paint the INSIDE of the stupid window so the PIGS couldn't just scratch off the paint again and look in.

 

[Nakita Akita]

Yes, that does happen in the (21st Century) real world, but I'm definitely of the opinion that the writers should have had her behave differently. Portraying things as they are, rather than as they should be will only get you so far, and in pop culture like Star Trek, has to take a lot of the responsibility for maintaing the negative status quo.



I can certainly see the narrative merits of this storyline, but to me it's still covering up rather than adressing the problem to begin with.

What was the problem?
For real, I'm not trying to be argumentative.