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Any Fans of "The Paradise Syndrome"

I know I already had my say, but it was early on in this thread, there's been a lot of "Paradise" love posted since, and I just really hate this episode. It's almost like some of you nice folks are talking about a different episode than I am - because the one I saw was total schlock.

And I thought so from the moment I saw it back in 1968 or whenever it aired even though I was only, like, 10. The Obelisk is kind of cool...but it's also really derivative of other things we'd already seen in Trek, the plot is hackneyed and sappy and full of holes, the coincidences are ridiculous, the regular characters act out of character, and I just loathe it.

Also, I knew even back then that American Indians didn't really look like that. I know, I know - we aren't on Earth so they aren't actual American Indians, but if they are going to give us a people who wear the kinds of things and do the kinds of things American Indians are supposed to wear and do (sort of - that's another problem, actually), they could have done a better job of it, even in 1968.

But it does look cool - that it was shot outdoors, I mean, instead of on a set.

You're totally right in your assessment there. The Native Americans really pushed the camp factor, though, and I think replacing them with a less stereotypical civilization would have made the episode look not so bad, or at least we might be more forgiving of its mistakes.

What I respect about it was that it touched on the idea that maybe Kirk had grown tired of his life of responsibilities on a starship - the "Tahiti Syndrome" stuff, not unlike Pike in "The Cage," and the interactions between the crew without him there.

Then again, we could have had a better episode (like "The Cage") dealing with the issue of Tahiti Syndrome, and we get to see the crew react to a missing Kirk in "The Tholian Web." So, "The Paradise Syndrome" is rendered useless, then? :p
 
I think "Paradise" is one of those TOS eps that fans forgive because they see in it not just a flawed ep, but the potentially great story that could have been were it not for the dreadful mistakes. Think about it: the Enterprise arrives at a lush, green planet populated by Earthlike natives many light-years from Earth, and Kirk has a job to do: protect these primitive innocents from an impending meteor collision, and apply the mighty Enterprise's technology in the process. Then things go wrong. What should have been a great story combining exploration and rescue instead becomes an amnesia-driven soap opera.

The damndest thing about "Paradise" is that, despite its laughable missteps, it is still entertaining. (sometimes for the wrong reasons) The thing about this ep that I still enioy to this day has nothing to do with Kirk or the natives: the story is really about Spock, first driven to stop the asteroid, and then to find the scoop on the Preservers and their deflector. And DeForest Kelly compliments Leonard Nimoy perfectly. I just love the chewing out McCoy gave Spock; "we might not even be able to save this ship..." It's too bad the planet-side drama didn't match the plot aboard ship.

So, go ahead: call this one a stinker. One thing we'll all agree on, it could've been a great one if only the Kirk/native story had been better in its execution.
 
I think "Paradise" is one of those TOS eps that fans forgive because they see in it not just a flawed ep, but the potentially great story that could have been were it not for the dreadful mistakes. Think about it: the Enterprise arrives at a lush, green planet populated by Earthlike natives many light-years from Earth, and Kirk has a job to do: protect these primitive innocents from an impending meteor collision, and apply the mighty Enterprise's technology in the process. Then things go wrong. What should have been a great story combining exploration and rescue instead becomes an amnesia-driven soap opera.

I still think that's getting the priorities of the episode backward. Story comes from character. The point wasn't to tell a story about rescuing endangered natives. The point was to tell a story about James T. Kirk: his longing for a simpler life, his deep-seated need for love and commitment, and his inability to escape the burdens of leadership. It was also to tell a story about Spock refusing to give up on his friend no matter the illogic of it, and McCoy trying to keep Spock from self-destructing and maybe dragging the rest of the crew down along with him. The rescue plot was merely a means to serve those ends.

A great story isn't about things happening. It's about people and how they're challenged and revealed by the things that happen.
 
I know I already had my say, but it was early on in this thread, there's been a lot of "Paradise" love posted since, and I just really hate this episode. It's almost like some of you nice folks are talking about a different episode than I am - because the one I saw was total schlock.

And I thought so from the moment I saw it back in 1968 or whenever it aired even though I was only, like, 10. The Obelisk is kind of cool...but it's also really derivative of other things we'd already seen in Trek, the plot is hackneyed and sappy and full of holes, the coincidences are ridiculous, the regular characters act out of character, and I just loathe it.

Also, I knew even back then that American Indians didn't really look like that. I know, I know - we aren't on Earth so they aren't actual American Indians, but if they are going to give us a people who wear the kinds of things and do the kinds of things American Indians are supposed to wear and do (sort of - that's another problem, actually), they could have done a better job of it, even in 1968.

But it does look cool - that it was shot outdoors, I mean, instead of on a set.
The were from the Hollywood tribe. ;) Known for their use of the plains Tipi in a mountain forest.
 
^I suppose that could be justified by assuming that the Preservers took representatives of multiple Native American populations that then blended together into a single composite culture.

Even the ethnicity of the actors could be justified, since, contrary to the "tribal" model imposed on their culture by Westerners*, Native Americans traditionally didn't define identity by blood or birth. Anyone could be adopted into a community and be treated as just as much a part of it as someone born within it. A lot of early European settlers were abducted and assimilated in this way. Depending on when and where the Preservers took their samples, there could've been Europeans among the communities they took.

________
* The "tribe" notion comes from an early European belief that the Native Americans might be a lost tribe of Israel. Although Native Americans didn't traditionally organize their cultures along tribal lines based on blood inheritance, they were forced to begin doing so by United States laws that assumed they followed such a model and therefore assigned territorial and other rights on the basis of "tribal" affiliation. The only way they could keep the rights to their own land was by convincing the US government that they had an ancestral, tribal claim to it. So their lives ended up becoming organized along tribal lines out of necessity rather than tradition. Of course, the government still usually took their lands from them anyway. Is it any wonder the Preservers thought they needed preserving?
 
True, but to a lot of folks "Indian" means the tipi dwelling, horse riding "savage" plains tribes. Hollywood helped form that image.
 
"Dances with Miramanee" was never a favorite of mine in the overall scheme of the series, but it was a nice early 3rd season show. It's off format, which is always a cool thing to try once in a while.

Some good points were raised here. Christoper mentioned that the Preservers were shortsighted to only have one deflector. I do think the Preservers would have been intelligent enough to have a number of these things placed at appropriate intervals, not just one for the whole planet. Also, who's to say it wasn't the Indians who insisted decided to only tell the medicine man the secret. The Indians already existed, so they brought their own tribal customs with them. Maybe the felt too much information was not a good thing and kept it to the one trusted person. Nobody said they hadda be smart Indians.

My only real complaint in this episode is with Shatner. Now I am usually the first guy to defend him when he's lumped in the "overacting" category. But this episode is not a good example of his best work. The "I'm so happeeee!" line whispered loudly always gave me and my sister belly laughs. Always. And the "Kirok hugs himself with happiness" shot is just as bad. Two very overdone bits in an otherwise well performed, off-beat role for Shatner.

I also wonder if, after the credits, Kirk didn't escort Salish to the obelisk and beat the living shit out of him. That would have been funny.

Like the Margaret Armen's "Gamesters of Triskelion," and Joyce Muskat's "The Empath", though, this episode feels something like fan fiction.
 
I still think that's getting the priorities of the episode backward. Story comes from character. The point wasn't to tell a story about rescuing endangered natives. The point was to tell a story about James T. Kirk: his longing for a simpler life, his deep-seated need for love and commitment, and his inability to escape the burdens of leadership. It was also to tell a story about Spock refusing to give up on his friend no matter the illogic of it, and McCoy trying to keep Spock from self-destructing and maybe dragging the rest of the crew down along with him. The rescue plot was merely a means to serve those ends.

A great story isn't about things happening. It's about people and how they're challenged and revealed by the things that happen.

In the end, " The Paradise Syndrome" turns out to be a better exposition of the Spock-McCoy relationship. It featuered a great Spock-in-Command story, better than "That Which Survives" or "The Gamesters of Triskellion", though not as good as "The Galileo Seven". What makes this ep stand out is that Spock's chance to command is serious, not the ridiculous blunders of "Galileo"; more like "The Tholian Web".

You can say that TOS was not a plot-driven show, and the format definitely underscores that, but "Paradise" was one of those rare off-format critters that, if it had been left in the oven a little longer, might've been a great hybrid of plot and character-driven stories.

If Kirk had been injured on the planet while on an expedition with Dr. Mirimanee and Ensign Youngblood, and they had been left on the planet while Spock led the attempt to stop the meteor, and the injured Kirk, still recovering, confronted Dr. Mirimanee about the Prime Directive and warning her not to get too close to the natives, it would've made a great ep.
 
^No, I don't think so, not by the needs of '60s series television. In the story you're describing, the main personal conflict is within a guest star, and the lead character of the series is merely an observer. That's nowhere near as effective as a story where the lead himself, the character that the audience has been invested in emotionally for two years, is at the emotional center of events.

Besides, what you're describing is practically a rehash of "Who Mourns for Adonais." I can guarantee you that if your idea had been handled by '60s writers, the lady Indian scientist would've fallen in love with a handsome Indian man and would've been portrayed as just another weak woman who was a slave to her hormones, like Carolyn Palamas or Marla McGivers. And that wouldn't have been enjoyable to see again.
 
I liked the episode and at a few points expected to see Kirk joined by Opie and Andy Griffith, if only to toss a skipper into the lake.

Quite possibly Shatner's laughable moment of hugging himself out of happiness got him the co-starring role in Pray For The Wildcat's with Big Griff.

Think about it! ;)
 
Christopher said:
The "tribe" notion comes from an early European belief that the Native Americans might be a lost tribe of Israel. Although Native Americans didn't traditionally organize their cultures along tribal lines based on blood inheritance, they were forced to begin doing so by United States laws that assumed they followed such a model and therefore assigned territorial and other rights on the basis of "tribal" affiliation. The only way they could keep the rights to their own land was by convincing the US government that they had an ancestral, tribal claim to it. So their lives ended up becoming organized along tribal lines out of necessity rather than tradition.

Do you have a source for this, Christopher? Because this doesn't quite jive with my recollection, though goodness knows I've misrecollected before. And I also think it would depend on the particular culture we're talking about - there were significant differences from tribe to tribe, naturally.

Of course, a lot depends on one's definition of "tribe." At least some American Indians were definitely subdivided into...well, let's call it "distinctive cultures" - Navajos, for example, divided (and some might still do this for all I know - it's many years since I visited Navajoland) the world into "us" and "them," and "us" was definitely and specifically Navajos. I think that preceded resettlement and all that crap, but of course it's hard to be sure. Is a "tribe" the same thing as a "distinctive culture"? I guess it kind of depends.

The Navajos (and other tribes, too) refer routinely to the Navajo Nation - that's what's on their website. Tribe...nation...distinctive culture...I for one am pretty sure I couldn't come up with definitive definitions that would adequately differentiate between these.
 
Christopher said:
The "tribe" notion comes from an early European belief that the Native Americans might be a lost tribe of Israel. Although Native Americans didn't traditionally organize their cultures along tribal lines based on blood inheritance, they were forced to begin doing so by United States laws that assumed they followed such a model and therefore assigned territorial and other rights on the basis of "tribal" affiliation. The only way they could keep the rights to their own land was by convincing the US government that they had an ancestral, tribal claim to it. So their lives ended up becoming organized along tribal lines out of necessity rather than tradition.

Do you have a source for this, Christopher? Because this doesn't quite jive with my recollection, though goodness knows I've misrecollected before. And I also think it would depend on the particular culture we're talking about - there were significant differences from tribe to tribe, naturally.

It comes from the class on Native American history I took in college. I don't have a specific text to cite, just my memory of lectures. Indeed, one of the problems we faced in that course was that there aren't a lot of available texts on the subject because it doesn't get covered enough in academia. So it doesn't surprise me that a lot of this might not be widely known.


Of course, a lot depends on one's definition of "tribe." At least some American Indians were definitely subdivided into...well, let's call it "distinctive cultures" - Navajos, for example, divided (and some might still do this for all I know - it's many years since I visited Navajoland) the world into "us" and "them," and "us" was definitely and specifically Navajos. I think that preceded resettlement and all that crap, but of course it's hard to be sure. Is a "tribe" the same thing as a "distinctive culture"? I guess it kind of depends.

A tribe is defined as a group of people sharing a common ancestry. A distinctive culture is just that, a culture. Tribes are defined on the basis of heredity. Under US law, in order to claim the rights afforded to a given Native American "tribe," you have to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the government that you are related to that tribe by blood. Which is different from the traditional Native American practice (at least among Algonquian/Mississippian peoples) to define cultural affiliation independently of heredity. I never said they didn't define themselves as distinct and separate cultures, just that those definitions weren't based on genetics. A given culture could have members of multiple different genetic backgrounds. For instance, the way a breakaway group of Creeks who migrated to Florida merged with free Africans and escaped slaves in the same region to form the Seminole nation. The fact that their ancestors belonged to different ethnicities, even came from different continents, wasn't (and isn't) relevant to their shared cultural identity.


The Navajos (and other tribes, too) refer routinely to the Navajo Nation - that's what's on their website. Tribe...nation...distinctive culture...I for one am pretty sure I couldn't come up with definitive definitions that would adequately differentiate between these.

There is a clear differentiation if the terms are defined technically. A tribe is a group of people who live together in a community defined on the basis of shared heredity, biological relationship. It's a kin group larger than a clan or family. A nation, in modern terms, is a political entity, a sovereign state consisting of people with a shared identity, an identity that can be based in common ethnicity, common culture, common beliefs, common language, or whatever. A culture is something much broader and less specific -- the behaviors, beliefs, values, creations, arts, and institutions that characterize a community or society. Tribes and nations have cultures, because every human community has a culture, but the definition of culture is not limited to those two things, and those two things are not identical to one another at all.

And as I said, the way Native Americans define their culture has changed over the past couple of centuries in response to changing demands and circumstances. They define their cultures in tribal terms today because they've had to -- it's the only way they can claim any rights under the US laws based on the assumption that they're tribally organized. So they've had a vested interest in embracing tribe-based identities. So what started out as a misunderstanding several centuries ago has retroactively become the truth today. As for the Navajo Nation, the modern concept of a nation as a distinct political entity originated during the French Revolution and was adopted by other cultures over time. The Navajo defined themselves as a nation as a way of competing for political standing with the United States. To be able to stand up to that nation and engage with them politically, diplomatically, and economically, they had to engage on the same terms, by asserting their own nationhood and the territorial and other rights that go with it.

This is what happens when cultures interact. They change. They adapt to new circumstances. And after an adaptation has been in place for a couple of generations, people just assume it's the way they've always been. It's always a mistake to assume that the beliefs, values, and customs a culture has today are the same ones it had in the distant past before it was contacted by other societies. Even before contact, any given culture would be a dynamic thing, going through growth and change over time. This is a point that was driven home repeatedly in my Native American history courses.
 
You could very well be right, Christopher, but I also think it's at least possible that your college instructor (or the text) was generalizing too much. It's a mistake to think that because American Indian Tribe/culture/band X did something, we can automatically assume that another American Indian tribe did the same thing. So what holds true for the Seminoles doesn't necessarily hold for the Navajos, and what holds for the Navajoes and the Seminoles doesn't necessarily hold for the Apaches, and that includes whether they were organized along tribal lines or not. There was (and still is, I think) more diversity than Europeans seemed to be aware of. Whether there was diversity on this question...I just don't know.

But thanks for the explanation - very interesting. I am much more familiar with Southwestern tribes than I am with tribes in the Eastern U.S., so I didn't know most of what you wrote.
 
The Dineh (Navajo) and other Apachean peoples have historically been organized in extended family "clusters" using matrilocal residence (i.e. the family lived where the wife/mother lived). These clusters were organized into larger local groups, which were organized into larger bands (except among the Dineh, who had smaller affiliations called outfits), and so on. There isn't historically a strong tribal component to their social organization.

There's plenty of diversity across Native American cultures. That's my whole point -- that the idea that all Native Americans are "tribal" is a European invention. There's a ton of different traditional social structures among the Native Americans, structures that evolved and diversified over the course of 12,000 years of civilization apart from Eurasia and Africa. Which inevitably led to enormous diversity, dynamism, and novelty. Even if some of them have, over the course of their history, developed elements of social organization that we Westerners can perceive as analogous to our concept of the tribe, the analogy would be imperfect at best.
 
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