Another Re-watching DS9 thread (spoilers)

[benjaminh]

Thanks, apollo1984, for your review of the first season!++

 

[benjaminh]

Original promos for The Homecoming:

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The Homecoming, the Circle, and the Siege together make a great DS9 movie imho. Would love to see this remastered for HD, although I realize it's highly unlikely that will ever happen. Anyway, this one works on all levels for me.

Great homage here to John Ford movies like Fort Apache and The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence, which also work with the idea of legends and myths sometimes being more important than the "truth."

Great intertwined plots, character arcs, emotion, and humor all in one "epic" (for DS9) TV movie.

A+

 

[apollo1984]

The opening Trio of episodes for season 2 were fantastic and a great way to start the series, I have a little soft spot for trilogy episodes as usually there is a interesting theme and it allows the story to be fleshed out and allow little bits of humour such as blaming O'brien for only getting combat rations (any even the fact he likes them) or Dax's and Kira's exchanges about seat of their pants flying.

Overall it's a real solid ways to start a series.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm now watching 'His way' Season 6 i recall watching this when it first aired on UK TV years ago I screamed and shouted 'At last!' for the two characters. Romance in the midst of war is pretty realistic.

 

[benjaminh]

George Beymer projects real depth and world-weariness as Li Nalas. Excellent performance imho.

 

[benjaminh]

First season of DS9:

Emissary 1x01/02 40511-721 46379.1 1993-01-03
Past Prologue 1x03 40511-404 Unknown 1993-01-09
A Man Alone 1x04 40511-403 46421.5 1993-01-17
Babel 1x05 40511-405 46423.7 1993-01-24
Captive Pursuit 1x06 40511-406 46477.5 1993-01-30
Q-Less 1x07 40511-407 46531.2 1993-02-06
Dax 1x08 40511-408 46910.1 1993-02-13
The Passenger 1x09 40511-409 Unknown 1993-02-20
Move Along Home 1x10 40511-410 Unknown 1993-03-14
The Nagus 1x11 40511-411 Unknown 1993-03-21
Vortex 1x12 40511-412 Unknown 1993-04-18
Battle Lines 1x13 40511-413 Unknown 1993-04-25
The Storyteller 1x14 40511-414 46729.1 1993-05-02
Progress 1x15 40511-415 46844.3 1993-05-09
If Wishes Were Horses 1x16 40511-416 46853.2 1993-05-16
The Forsaken 1x17 40511-417 46925.1 1993-05-23
Dramatis Personae 1x18 40511-418 46922.3 1993-05-30
Duet 1x19 40511-419 Unknown 1993-06-13
In the Hands of the Prophets 1x20 40511-420 Unknown 1993-06-20

 

[benjaminh]

I think almost all fans would agree that the first season of DS9 had a lot of dud episodes. But there are a lot of good ones as well. If you had to rank your top ten for the season, what would you pick?

Here's my top ten for the S1 of DS9:
1. Duet
2. In the Hands of the Prophets
3-4. Emissary
5. Vortex
6. Past Prologue
7. Captive Pursuit
8. Progress
9. The Nagus
10. Battle Lines

 

[benjaminh]

Original Promos for Invasive Procedures....

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Mixed on this one. Dramatic and grim, but rather off-topic. I guess I rate it a B-.

 

[apollo1984]

Honestly I found it difficult to enjoy Jadzia's episodes as she was a character I did not really like or dislike so I always found her episodes hard to watch, also this was one of those episodes where quark was immune from punishment, I mean seriously he did so many crimes he should have been rotting in prison well before the end of the series.

 

[Yanks]

I think almost all fans would agree that the first season of DS9 had a lot of dud episodes. But there are a lot of good ones as well. If you had to rank your top ten for the season, what would you pick?

Here's my top ten for the S1 of DS9:
1. Duet
2. In the Hands of the Prophets
3-4. Emissary
5. Vortex
6. Past Prologue
7. Captive Pursuit
8. Progress
9. The Nagus
10. Battle Lines

Here are my Top 10 for DS9 S1 (1-4 rating scale):

Captive Pursuit 4.00
Duet 4.00
In The Hands Of The Prophets 4.00
Emissary 3.50
Past Prologue 3.50
The Forsaken 3.00
Vortex 2.50
Babel 2.00
Q-Less 2.00
Dax 2.00

Overall average 2.08 for the season.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I'm going to say that "Dax" is a better episode than most people realize. Granted, Farrell comes nowhere close to a performance deserving of her character's eponymous episode. OTOH, Brooks does. He lives through elements of his friendship with Curzon, whom we never really see. And he shows tenderness toward Jadzia. I love when he confronts Dax about the illicit affair just before she is supposed to testify, As another Sisko backstory, the episode works fairly well.

ETA: I also liked Renora, whom I would have liked to see again.

 

[Yanks]

I'm going to say that "Dax" is a better episode than most people realize. Granted, Farrell comes nowhere close to a performance deserving of her character's eponymous episode. OTOH, Brooks does. He lives through elements of his friendship with Curzon, whom we never really see. And he shows tenderness toward Jadzia. I love when he confronts Dax about the illicit affair just before she is supposed to testify, As another Sisko backstory, the episode works fairly well.

ETA: I also liked Renora, whom I would have liked to see again.

Another "court" episode in trek that gets WAY too much credit for being good. (see Measure of a Man)

The whole reason for the extradition hearing is crap. It doesn't matter where Jadzia is serving, she's a member of Star Fleet and Trill is a member of the Federation. All Tandro had to do was submit the request to the proper authorities. The whole Bajor involved mumbo-jumbo is crap. The fact that Odo and Sisko didn't arrest Tandro and his thugs for any number of crimes is crap.

The most interesting point of this whole episode was this:

"SISKO: Exactly. From one host to the next. A different host, a different person. So I submit that the person he wants to extradite no longer exists, and I challenge him to prove otherwise.
TANDRO: That's ridiculous.
RENORA: It would have been easier on me, Commander, had you not raised that particular point. But the penalty for these crimes on your planet is death, and that is rather permanent. So before I grant extradition, you will convince me please, that the person named in your warrant is the person who is standing here now."

We learn that Jadzia remained silent in her defense because Curzon swore to be silent, but we never do learn if a Trill or new host can be punished for a crime one of the other hosts commit.

I think Sisko made a great argument in this hearing that wasn't necessary.

"SISKO: ... Madame Arbiter, how can anyone justify trying her for a crime allegedly committed by another entity before she was even born?"

I don't know that we ever learn the answer to this question. I do remember that one of Dax's previous hosts was a psychopath/killer... guess no one ever prosecuted, eh?

I thought Anne Haney was superb in her performance. I also liked Odo's persistence and the performance of Fionnula Flanagan. Sisko also gave a good performance during the hearing.

But this hearing should never have taken place.

How hard would it have been for there to have been no treaty between Klaestron Four and the Federation? Then this hearing would have been required. Oh, then we don't have action and technobabble to kick things off. I thought the DS9 writers we so good…

This episode falls short because we don't get an answer to how Trills are treated within the law and because the writers were so stupid in setting up this hearing.

All we really learn about Jadzia Dax is she was an outstanding student.

Much like TNG's Measure of a Man, the performances elevate this episode to heights that when you break it down it shouldn't achieve.

2 out of 4 stars.

 

[benjaminh]

I love Measure of a Man, but I agree with your review of this one.

 

[Yanks]

Hope the rest of you will share your thoughts as I go through the episodes....

"Emissary," first aired January 3rd, 1993.

23 years ago I watched the premiere "movie" of Deep Space Nine with my future wife in Santa Barbara, California, where we were then in grad school. Although I put quotes around it, I really do think this was a good Star Trek movie in terms of its ambition, sets, emotions, special effects, and so on. I've never exactly loved Emissary in the half dozen or so times I've watched it, but I do like it very much. What the people in front of and behind the cameras accomplished on several levels was a significant reinvention of Star Trek, while still remaining loyal in most ways to that universe.

The Next Generation, as we all know, had been a huge hit for about three years when they gave the greenlight to DS9. Next Gen was known for many things, including:

-no conflict between major characters
-relentless optimism and a bright, upscale, futuristic hotel look
-no serialized stories

I feel like there are maybe a few more things I could add to that list, but right from the beginning with Emissary DS9 is different. DS9 has:

-conflict between its characters
-a grittier and more ambivalent view of the future, and more shadowy lighting
-increasingly serialized stories.

That's all I have time for right now. I'll continue my review in a while....Feel free to chime in with thoughts, suggestions, your own review of Emissary, etc.

I won't go into too much detail. I think it was a fine premier. All the characters are aptly introduced, we get some back story on a few and TNG crosses over for a hand shake.

I do have an issue with Sisko still holding Picard responsible for Wolf 359. It's not like it happened the day before he was assigned to DS9. Pretty childish stance for someone that is going to be the Commanding Officer of a space station.

Loved the whole wormhole/aliens with Sisko trying to explain linear existence. Thought that was well done.

Love the look of our new space station.

Some seriously questionable acting by a couple of our regulars, but we'll see how that pans out over time.

Major technobabble rescue moving the station... I thought only TNG and Voyager use that as the answer.

So sad that Felecia M. Bell couldn’t have been Kassidy Yates.

I'll give Emissary 3.5 stars. Great start to a new series.

 

[Yanks]

The first season of DS9, as you can see from that list, gets only three episodes picked as being part of the best of the show.

If I had to add one more episode from the first season, however, I think it would be the first one after the premiere, because "Past Prologue" features the introduction of a favorite supporting character, Garak. Andrew Robinson does a fabulous job as "plain, simple Garak," and starts to show the other side of the Cardassians, rather like Quark shows the other side of the Ferengi. Here's a little interview with Andrew Robinson:

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"Past Prologue" is also a good episode for Kira, providing conflict with both Sisko and the Bajoran Tahna.

Anyway, I guess I'll rate Past Prologue a B+.

But one thing you can tell for sure is that they can't spend money on the individual episodes in anything like the way they did on that premiere. Emissary cost about $12 million dollars, which would be about $20+ million today when adjusting for inflation. That's only slight less than what they spent on The Wrath of Khan! Individual episodes, in contrast, had a baseline budget of maybe $2 million back then, which would be c. $3m today. And so, for the first season we have a fair number of "bottle shows" that are set in the station and rarely leave it, largely because they broke the bank on the premiere. "Duet" was a bottle show that became a classic, and one of the best episodes of the series, but most of the other bottle episodes this season are only so-so—and sometimes worse than that. But Past Prologue is a keeper for me, because of plain, simple Garak.

I thought this episode was pretty good. Love how they brought in the Duras sisters.

The best part was we start to get to know "plain, simple Garak".

Very good first regular episode.

3.5 stars for me.

 

[Yanks]

The third episode of the first season, "A Man Alone," is an OK murder mystery episode. But to me it wasn't anything special, and begins the rather long descent into mediocrity that DS9 couldn't seem to overcome during its first two years.

I guess I'd give it a B-.

Here are the original promos:

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Below average episode for me.

The "mob" was ridiculous. the guy yelling "Shape-shifter" was obnoxious.

I never got the feeling that Odo was ever in any real danger.

I found it a little disheartening that the Federation had not considered establishing a school on DS9 when they took over the station. Did they jut forget the Star Fleet kids?

1.5 stars for me.

 

[Yanks]

The 4th episode of the season, Babel, is a medical mystery episode. The main symptom of this weaponized virus is that people babble. Colm Meaney as Miles O'Brien does the best with this jibberish imho! Funny and freaky stuff.

Another ok episode that I'd also say rates a B-.

But the later episodes of DS9, where most episodes seem to not only work on their own, but are also work as threads in a much larger tapestry, contributing to larger plots and themes, are obviously much stronger. That's the DS9 that fans know and love, and seeing these ok one-off episodes just makes that even more clear.

Anyway, here are the promos for this one:

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I didn't mind the episode as much as the reveal that Avery can't show emotion at all when acting.

This was a pretty sad moment for me, realizing that we are stuck with this guy for as long as the series runs.

I found it peculiar that the Bajorian was able to find the cure quickly, when Bashir was unsuccessful over a longer time. I know in the shows' final "captain's log" he states that "with the aid of Bashir's notes", blah, blah .... but we never saw him reference them.

Kind of a hammy episode. Nothing gained really.

2 stars.

 

[Yanks]

"Captive Pursuit" is a pretty good episode. The idea of the hunt and hunted was something that DS9 and Voyager took up later. Are the Jem'Hadar related to Tosk?

TNG in its first few seasons tended toward the idealistic for its characters. That squeaky-clean tendency for federation officers had already shifted a bit toward ambiguity by Next Gen's fourth season, I think, but this episode does more along that line with O'Brien. But I feel like, in a way, he is maybe trying to fulfill the Prime Directive by helping Tosk....?

Anyway, I rate it a B+. Here are the original trailers:

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SISKO: Save it. You ignored your duty to Starfleet. You took off your comm. badge so you could ignore me. You even ignored the Prime Directive by interfering with their damned hunt. Another stunt like this and your wife won't have to complain about the conditions here anymore. Do I make myself clear?
O'BRIEN: I understand. I was surprised by one thing, sir.
SISKO: What's that?
O'BRIEN: I knew I couldn't override all the security seals on the station, and I figured once you and the Constable located us, well, it'd be over. We'd find ourselves locked behind some forcefield somewhere.
SISKO: I guess that one got by us.
O'BRIEN: Yes, sir. Thank you, sir.
SISKO: Dismissed.

One thing I liked about Sisko... he breaks the rules and did it in such a way that no one got in trouble.

I thought it was great when Sisko told Odo "Constable. There's no hurry"... and Odo took his good ole time getting to the turbo lift ... lol

I really enjoyed this episode. Love the "Tron like" hunters, love Tosk and thought Obrien and everyone else was fantastic.

Die with honour!!

4 stars for me.

 

[Yanks]

Q-Less is a weak episode. I'm not a big Q fan to begin with, and I also really disliked the "Captain's Holiday" episode from TNG that this is more or less a sequel to.

My rating: C-

Seems like they were grasping at straws doing this one. But when you're stuck in the relentless production schedule that DS9 had to meet, sometimes it seems like they just had to go forward with the teleplays they had that met their budget.

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I always saw this episode as Sisko's "I'm not Picard" episode. (or maybe more aptly, DS9 isn't TNG)

Loved Quark's expression when Q zaps him inside the door to Vash's room. :-)

Some good humor here, but the whole artifact thing was blah.

2 out of 4 stars for me.

 

[Yanks]

Move Along Home's original promos:

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Hmmm. What to say about this one? The surreal torture game by aliens reminds me of a few episodes from TOS—but they were usually bad episodes too. Another misfire imho.

Another C-.

Always skipper for me.

Not only has this episode earned DS9's worst, it's right there in “the worst of all trek” running competition.

At least Spock's Brain was so bad it was humorous. At least most of Threshold was good. At least some of TATV was heartfelt. (I could go on)

The best line was:

"QUARK: Oh, that's right, you were here for the groveling."

This whole episode "smelt of elderberries".

I’ll bet Odo was pissed he wasn't the one to catch Quark cheating his customers.

1/2 star for Quark's great line.