Angel- Why no Love!
- Thread starter Snick27
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Uh, no, it didn't.
She stopped the blow that was aimed at her, and straightened up a bit with a determined look on her face.
That was IT.
Or maybe he just doesn't care about some dudes on the internet? I know I don't.
If he wants to push his feminist agenda, he is free to do so. You don't like it? Don't watch it.
There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to derail every existing thread on this board about his work.
To paraphrase Spike: "You're like a dog with a bone. Let it go!"
Problem is that I already had watched nearly all of it, save for the very last twenty minutes or so, before being smacked with that troll hammer in the face.
^^And do those last 20 minutes somehow magically erase all the entertainment that you got out of the show before?
No, they just leave a sour taste in my mouth.
How about you all get over the whole show, then, and stop talking about it ? It's the only way discussion of one of the central themes of the show will stop.
My only purpose for even mentioning it in the first place was that I felt that Angel was a better show for not being overloaded with the less than subtle metaphors Buffy occasionally suffered from.
Well, on that subject, Whedon often said that he had trouble finding exactly what the metaphor was supposed to be on Angel. Also that Angel was supposed to be a more "mature" series than Buffy, whatever that means.
Season 1 of Angel started with a very similar format to Buffy - metaphor literalized as the monster of the week. The stalker who can literally be watching you wherever you go, the apartment that you'd rather die than leave, etc. But that approach didn't work very long, and by the end of the first season it was more a matter of just exploring the characters and the world they lived in.
So maybe the "not overloaded with metaphors" thing was more a matter of not knowing how than not wanting to.
Season 1 of Angel started with a very similar format to Buffy - metaphor literalized as the monster of the week. The stalker who can literally be watching you wherever you go, the apartment that you'd rather die than leave, etc. But that approach didn't work very long, and by the end of the first season it was more a matter of just exploring the characters and the world they lived in.
So maybe the "not overloaded with metaphors" thing was more a matter of not knowing how than not wanting to.
^Yeah, probably early on they didn't quite know what the show was supposed to be about.
In the end, though, I think the overall theme was trying to be a hero when you know that you can never win. I think Holland Manners' speech in "Reprise" explains the show best.
Angel: You're not gonna win.
Holland Manners: Well... no. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as "winning."
Angel: Then why?
Holland Manners: I'm sorry. Why what?
Angel: Why fight?
Holland Manners: That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We go on, no matter what. Our firm has always been here... in one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And that, friend, is what's making things so difficult for you. See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. It works with us. It works because of us.
Holland Manners: Welcome to the Home Office.
Angel: This isn't...
Holland Manners: Oh, you know it is. You know that better than anyone. The things you've seen. The things you've - well, done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there - why, they wouldn't be people. They'd all be angels. Have a nice day.
Even in the end, all Angel can do is cut the Senior Partners off from the world for a short time.
In the end, though, I think the overall theme was trying to be a hero when you know that you can never win. I think Holland Manners' speech in "Reprise" explains the show best.
Angel: You're not gonna win.
Holland Manners: Well... no. Of course we aren't. We have no intention of doing anything so prosaic as "winning."
Angel: Then why?
Holland Manners: I'm sorry. Why what?
Angel: Why fight?
Holland Manners: That's really the question you should be asking yourself, isn't it? See, for us, there is no fight. Which is why winning doesn't enter into it. We go on, no matter what. Our firm has always been here... in one form or another. The Inquisition. The Khmer Rouge. We were there when the very first cave man clubbed his neighbor. See, we're in the hearts and minds of every single living being. And that, friend, is what's making things so difficult for you. See, the world doesn't work in spite of evil, Angel. It works with us. It works because of us.
Holland Manners: Welcome to the Home Office.
Angel: This isn't...
Holland Manners: Oh, you know it is. You know that better than anyone. The things you've seen. The things you've - well, done. You see, if there wasn't evil in every single one of them out there - why, they wouldn't be people. They'd all be angels. Have a nice day.
Even in the end, all Angel can do is cut the Senior Partners off from the world for a short time.
I would say it's better summed up in the next episode
Kate: "I feel like such an idiot."
Angel: "A lot of that going around."
Kate: "I just couldn't... - My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything."
Angel: "It doesn't."
Kate: "Doesn't what?"
Angel: "Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."
Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."
Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
Which kinda goes back to what Angel said in a Season 3 ep of Buffy, 'Gingerbread'-
Buffy: How are you?
Angel: I'm alright. I think I'm better than you right now. I heard about this. People are talking. People are even talking to me.
Buffy: It's strange. People die in Sunnydale all the time. I've never seen anything like this.
Angel: They were children. Innocent. It makes a difference.
Buffy: And Mr. Sanderson from the bank had it coming? (sighs) My mom... said some things to me about being the Slayer. That it's fruitless. No fruit for Buffy.
Angel: She's wrong.
Buffy: Is she? Is Sunnydale any better than when I first came here? Okay, so I battle evil. But I don't really win. The bad keeps coming back and getting stronger. Like that kid in the story, the boy that stuck his finger in the duck.
Angel: Dike. It's another word for dam.
Buffy: Oh. Okay, that story makes a lot more sense now.
Angel: Buffy, you know, I'm still figuring things out. There's a lot I don't understand. But I do know it's important to keep fighting. I learned that from you.
Buffy: But we never...
Angel: We never win.
Buffy: Not completely.
Angel: We never will. That's not why we fight. We do it 'cause there's things worth fighting for. Those kids. Their parents.
And another one I like from 4.01 'Deep Down'
Angel: "What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor. - But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be. - You're not a part of that yet. - I hope you will be. I love you, Connor... Now get out of my house."
Kate: "I feel like such an idiot."
Angel: "A lot of that going around."
Kate: "I just couldn't... - My whole life has been about being a cop. If I'm not part of the force it's like nothing I do means anything."
Angel: "It doesn't."
Kate: "Doesn't what?"
Angel: "Mean anything. In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."
Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."
Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."
Which kinda goes back to what Angel said in a Season 3 ep of Buffy, 'Gingerbread'-
Buffy: How are you?
Angel: I'm alright. I think I'm better than you right now. I heard about this. People are talking. People are even talking to me.
Buffy: It's strange. People die in Sunnydale all the time. I've never seen anything like this.
Angel: They were children. Innocent. It makes a difference.
Buffy: And Mr. Sanderson from the bank had it coming? (sighs) My mom... said some things to me about being the Slayer. That it's fruitless. No fruit for Buffy.
Angel: She's wrong.
Buffy: Is she? Is Sunnydale any better than when I first came here? Okay, so I battle evil. But I don't really win. The bad keeps coming back and getting stronger. Like that kid in the story, the boy that stuck his finger in the duck.
Angel: Dike. It's another word for dam.
Buffy: Oh. Okay, that story makes a lot more sense now.
Angel: Buffy, you know, I'm still figuring things out. There's a lot I don't understand. But I do know it's important to keep fighting. I learned that from you.
Buffy: But we never...
Angel: We never win.
Buffy: Not completely.
Angel: We never will. That's not why we fight. We do it 'cause there's things worth fighting for. Those kids. Their parents.
And another one I like from 4.01 'Deep Down'
Angel: "What you did to me - was unbelievable, Connor. - But then I got stuck in a hell dimension by my girlfriend one time for a hundred years, so three months under the ocean actually gave me perspective. Kind of a M. C. Esher perspective - but I did get time to think. About us, about the world. - Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. - It's harsh, and cruel. - But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be. - You're not a part of that yet. - I hope you will be. I love you, Connor... Now get out of my house."
That seems to be the common agreement but, in my view, it's quite a bit simpler.
In both Buffy and Angel, Vampires frequently enter the homes of people who are already dead. At the moment Angel tried to enter the apartment, Kate was dead. Angel's actions then brought her back to life.
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